NVA amp suggestion for system upgrade

gone_deaf

After I ceased being quite involved in the hi-fi industry 20 years ago, I pretty much didn't bother with it as I travelled around with work quite a bit so just used some cheapish Asian integrated gear to get me by.

I recently decided to go through some of my old stuff that had been in storage pretty much for the last 18 years and pulled out a Micromega T-Drive and T-dac, Alchemist Kraken Integrated amp with upgraded PSU and the Royds (Minstrels and Topazes) which I've already discussed in other threads. The Kraken whilst OK does lacks some clarity in the bass and to me just feels like it's struggling with the lower end of the spectrum (the bass notes all seem to sound the same - actually not sure if this the a speaker or amp issue) so I'm considering getting a new amp and the NVAs have peaked my interest.

I'm considering the NVA P50 and the NVA A40 mono blocks. Would these work well with the Micromega source and Minstrels as a start? I'm concerned that the A40 may not have enough power to make the Minstrels properly sing. I'm limited by budget so can't go for the more powerful A60 or A70s. Unfortunately, here in Portugal I don't really have much opportunity to audition much as most stores don't stock the stuff I'm interested in or have very limited demo models if any.

Any thoughts? Would an AP60 be better? I'm thinking of the upgrade path in the future hence the mono block choice.

Docfoster

My guess re. the minstrels is that absolutely yes. Many here use the NVA - Royd route. Theremay even be some who have tried the very combination that you are proposing.
I'm not sure how the cheaper pre- power- combos stack up sonically against the more expensive integrateds. From a practical point of view, the pre- power- option may give a cheaper upgrade path vis-a-vis the attractive NVA trade-in deal (you'd have to check the prices i suppose), so that's something to consider.

Yomanze

I would look for a good deal / second hand on the AP80 as despite their dinky proportion Royds sing with serious (refined!) power. Whilst my 50W LFD sounds a touch more immediate in the mids and maybe more 'tubey' in some small respects it's the 90W dual mono version that really grips these speakers, with top to bottom authority and a delicate poise. I own Minstrels Sapphires and Sorcerers and they all respond in the same way.

sovereign

What kind of budget do you have in mind?

uglymusic

I drove my Royds with NVA's top power amps, the TDSs. £7000's-worth at retail.

I've since moved on to Colin/TQ's amps, which really like the RR3s.

gone_deaf

Thanks for the replies. My budget is a little limited at ~£600-£700. It seems from your replies that the Minstrels would benefit from more power than the A40s can produce. I'll keep an eye open for an AP80 but I think I would prefer the pre/power route for easier future upgrade ability. I just missed an auction for a P50 and A60 that ended up going quite .

Has anyone hear heard the P50/A40 combo? Are the amps authoritative with enough dynamic clout to handle listening at moderate to moderately high levels.

Docfoster

Currently i have a few NVA amps at home: a P90SA pre- + TSS mk3 power-, an AP30 (i think now a discontinued model) and an AP10P.
I'll compare them for "authoratativeness" this afternoon and get back to you. Tho I don't have Royds, it'll be interesting to hear what happens to the NVA sound as one moves up the range.

Alan

Yes, and yes. A40s are fine with Minstrels, and sound just fine. I personally really rate the A40 monos for value, especially 2nd hand. I used A40s with Minstrels with no problem at all.

The real upgrade is when you get to the amps with two power supplies in each channel, A80 and above (incl the discontinued AP80). When I used the A70s with the Minstrels, the improvement was real but incremental. Personally I'd save, and jump from A40 to A80.

I now use a TQ Atom for daily use (only 30w per channel), a tiny little amp which has practically as much welly as my bigger NVAs did, although I doubt there are many second hand ones about. That would make Minstrels fly, I reckon.

Best of luck making your decision and buying your amp. They way you're thinking, you'll get a super sounding system, I'm sure.

uglymusic

Thanks for the replies. My budget is a little limited at ~£600-£700. It seems from your replies that the Minstrels would benefit from more power than the A40s can produce. I'll keep an eye open for an AP80 but I think I would prefer the pre/power route for easier future upgrade ability. I just missed an auction for a P50 and A60 that ended up going quite .

Has anyone hear heard the P50/A40 combo? Are the amps authoritative with enough dynamic clout to handle listening at moderate to moderately high levels.

Don't get too caught up in my using the TDSs. I had them before the Minstrels, so all I was saying really was that you can drive them with some pretty heavyweight amplification.

The TQ Atom will give you great results - I have them here, too, and they're pretty amazing - but they're hard to come by secondhand. And you will need a pre-amp as well.

gone_deaf

Thanks Alan. You've made my decision easier now. Good tip about making the jump from A40 to A80.

That would be an interesting test Doc. How do you guys get away with having so much equipment at home? It's hard enough convincing the wife that I need a new amp lol.

gone_deaf

Don't get too caught up in my using the TDSs. I had them before the Minstrels, so all I was saying really was that you can drive them with some pretty heavyweight amplification.

The TQ Atom will give you great results - I have them here, too, and they're pretty amazing - but they're hard to come by secondhand. And you will need a pre-amp as well.

I'll see if I can find a TQ Atom to audition. I never heard of the brand before coming to this board but then I've not paid any attention to hi-fi for some time.

uglymusic

That would be an interesting test Doc. How do you guys get away with having so much equipment at home? It's hard enough convincing the wife that I need a new amp lol.

Sleight of hand, camouflage and just plain old dishonesty :-D

uglymusic

Don't get too caught up in my using the TDSs. I had them before the Minstrels, so all I was saying really was that you can drive them with some pretty heavyweight amplification.

The TQ Atom will give you great results - I have them here, too, and they're pretty amazing - but they're hard to come by secondhand. And you will need a pre-amp as well.

I'll see if I can find a TQ Atom to audition. I never heard of the brand before coming to this board but then I've not paid any attention to hi-fi for some time.

TQ is probably best known for cables around the forums, but Colin (@Brain_dead) has designed more amps than I've eaten chocolate bars.

Docfoster

That would be an interesting test Doc. How do you guys get away with having so much equipment at home? It's hard enough convincing the wife that I need a new amp lol.

Sleight of hand, camouflage and just plain old dishonesty :-D

The wife believes them to be "chocolate machines".
Actually the AP10P is my dad's. i've borrowed it for a bake off. The other 2 are in my main system (the AP30 powers the 12 inch woofers in an old pair of Goodmans Goodwoods (they were a tougher sell to the wife) when i feel i want a tad more bass).

Docfoster

Don't get too caught up in my using the TDSs. I had them before the Minstrels, so all I was saying really was that you can drive them with some pretty heavyweight amplification.

The TQ Atom will give you great results - I have them here, too, and they're pretty amazing - but they're hard to come by secondhand. And you will need a pre-amp as well.

I'll see if I can find a TQ Atom to audition. I never heard of the brand before coming to this board but then I've not paid any attention to hi-fi for some time.

TQ is probably best known for cables around the forums, but Colin (@Brain_dead) has designed more amps than I've eaten chocolate bars.

Rubbish. Colin's current daily amp design average is only 7.

uglymusic

That would be an interesting test Doc. How do you guys get away with having so much equipment at home? It's hard enough convincing the wife that I need a new amp lol.

Sleight of hand, camouflage and just plain old dishonesty :-D

The wife believes them to be "chocolate machines".
Actually the AP10P is my dad's. i've borrowed it for a bake off. The other 2 are in my main system (the AP30 powers the 12 inch woofers in an old pair of Goodmans Goodwoods (they were a tougher sell to the wife) when i feel i want a tad more bass).

See, Ben - all three apply to your situation, too ;-)

Docfoster

That would be an interesting test Doc. How do you guys get away with having so much equipment at home? It's hard enough convincing the wife that I need a new amp lol.

Sleight of hand, camouflage and just plain old dishonesty :-D

The wife believes them to be "chocolate machines".
Actually the AP10P is my dad's. i've borrowed it for a bake off. The other 2 are in my main system (the AP30 powers the 12 inch woofers in an old pair of Goodmans Goodwoods (they were a tougher sell to the wife) when i feel i want a tad more bass).

See, Ben - all three apply to your situation, too ;-)

Fair play. Tis true...

uglymusic

Don't get too caught up in my using the TDSs. I had them before the Minstrels, so all I was saying really was that you can drive them with some pretty heavyweight amplification.

The TQ Atom will give you great results - I have them here, too, and they're pretty amazing - but they're hard to come by secondhand. And you will need a pre-amp as well.

I'll see if I can find a TQ Atom to audition. I never heard of the brand before coming to this board but then I've not paid any attention to hi-fi for some time.

TQ is probably best known for cables around the forums, but Colin (@Brain_dead) has designed more amps than I've eaten chocolate bars.

Rubbish. Colin's current daily amp design average is only 7.

:-P

uglymusic

That would be an interesting test Doc. How do you guys get away with having so much equipment at home? It's hard enough convincing the wife that I need a new amp lol.

Sleight of hand, camouflage and just plain old dishonesty :-D

The wife believes them to be "chocolate machines".
Actually the AP10P is my dad's. i've borrowed it for a bake off. The other 2 are in my main system (the AP30 powers the 12 inch woofers in an old pair of Goodmans Goodwoods (they were a tougher sell to the wife) when i feel i want a tad more bass).

See, Ben - all three apply to your situation, too ;-)

Fair play. Tis true...

I'll have to try that 'chocolate machine' ruse on Sam... Trouble, is she'd be ripping the gear apart thinking it'd malfunctioned and a good smash with a sledgehammer was all that was needed to secure the desired Dairy Milk.

uglymusic

Is there a mod around here who can get these guys back on topic?  :-B

Docfoster

Is there a mod around here who can get these guys back on topic?  :-B

There are, but they lack strong leadership.

Alan

Alan

Mmmm... chocolate!

Docfoster

Righto...
Currently switching between the P90SA + TSS mk3 (not sure what the cost of these 2 together is new... (>£3500?)) and the little AP10P (£310?).
All that follows is presented on the context of a direct comparison between these 2 amplifications.
First thing to say is that straight off the bat, the AP10P does not sound weedy. For a satisfactory (high) perceived listening level it matched the larger pre- power- brotherhood. I was actually very impressed, not having heard the AP10P in my system before. Especially with acoustic stuff it's absolutely lovely. Typically realistic in an NVA way. Sounds aren't quite as well crystalised or as extended at the frequency extremes, as with my main amplification (thankfully!), but tbh the differences are less than i was expecting.
The differences open up between the 2 amplifiers with more energetic sounds. Drums especially. The AP10P still performs better than i want it to, but the P90SA-TSS mk3 really chisel out some whopping sounds when it comes to drum dynamics, so maybe that's where the extra PSU heft goes. The Kinobe "Soundphiles" album sounds more rounded-off on the smaller amp compared to the pre- power- combo. How much more...? A bit. There's a lot to be getting on with, but the overall impression moves someway away from individually presented instruments and towards something more homogenous. The differences in bass and trebble extension are there, but the main difference for me is that i want to brush out some dust in between the sounds coming out of the AP10P to make it sound more like the P90SA - TSS mk3. Is that what 'dynamic range' / being authorative is...? :-/

Will try the AP30 now...

Docfoster

...we continue...

The AP30 (how much was it when still around...? (£550 or something?) sounds closer to the AP10P than the P90-TSS, but some of that dust has definitely been bushed out. Things are somewhat more clearly heard. Ah, and a bass line has just kicked in with more depth and clarity than was managed on the AP10P. Less difference at the top end I'd say.
Overall the AP30 is sounding like it could be a main system amp...
My speakers are pretty demanding in terms of sensitivity, so do require some decent effort from their amp, not sure how this compares to Royds...?

Writing this has made me realise what a pointless exercise this is for everyone else.
Important to point out that there's more than power differences at play too of course (e.g. The dual mono stepped attenuators in the P90SA)...

For what it's worth I'd say:
AP10P - Great value. Would be great in 2nd or office system, or with more forgiving speakers. For me in my main system it lacks those final aspects of clarity.
AP30 - Good value. I could live with this in my system. Just about does enough, but could do with a bit more high end sparkle.
P90SA TSS mk3. Do everything I want them to but obviously at a price.
TQ Atom - no idea.

Personally I'd plumb for the P50 A40. My hunch is that 40 would be enough, and would allow you to upgrade more gradually. Mind you, i haven't done the sums on cost.

Only one way to find out of course...

Alan

Good job, Ben. I think you're right to mention the pre - I went from the P50 to P90 and there was a profound difference. I would imagine the SA version (stepped attenuator) is a different beastie altogether, but it costs between £5-600.

I concur with your findings re the smaller integrated vs Statement amp. This is why the A40 monos and the AP20 integrated I had remain my favorite from the range in vfm terms.

An Atom is not completely different from the NVA, it also majors on detail and musical information, yet manages a weightier, fleshier sounjd (I mistook it for warmth at first). I think if you like one, you'd like the other.

Docfoster

Good job, Ben. I think you're right to mention the pre - I went from the P50 to P90 and there was a profound difference. I would imagine the SA version (stepped attenuator) is a different beastie altogether, but it costs between £5-600.

I concur with your findings re the smaller integrated vs Statement amp. This is why the A40 monos and the AP20 integrated I had remain my favorite from the range in vfm terms.

An Atom is not completely different from the NVA, it also majors on detail and musical information, yet manages a weightier, fleshier sounjd (I mistook it for warmth at first). I think if you like one, you'd like the other.

Dave, you're bringing a TQ on Saturday aren't you...?

Brain_Dead

Removed by the control freak

Docfoster

) OK is this a NVA or a TQ shill , 

I would also like to suggest a Inca Tech IT50 Power Amp and the Magnum MP100 pre amp, both of which turn up on e-bay now and again.

Also think about the Croft range of products. 

It's a hideous spawn of both. The universe may implode at any moment.
Actually we're safe, I can't be an NVA shill as they have vowed never to sell me anything again, let alone give me freebies. ;-)

...hmmm...

...Buy TQ everyone! Great for all of your domestic appliance needs, and TQ will also make you irresistable to women. (Dave's still trying to clear out his bimbo infestation.)

Seriously, I'm looking forward to trying to get the Claymore up and running soon...

uglymusic

Good job, Ben. I think you're right to mention the pre - I went from the P50 to P90 and there was a profound difference. I would imagine the SA version (stepped attenuator) is a different beastie altogether, but it costs between £5-600.

I concur with your findings re the smaller integrated vs Statement amp. This is why the A40 monos and the AP20 integrated I had remain my favorite from the range in vfm terms.

An Atom is not completely different from the NVA, it also majors on detail and musical information, yet manages a weightier, fleshier sounjd (I mistook it for warmth at first). I think if you like one, you'd like the other.

Dave, you're bringing a TQ on Saturday aren't you...?

I'm bringing a TQ Listen pre and the Green Goddess, but I could bring an Atom or two if you want.

uglymusic

) OK is this a NVA or a TQ shill , 

I would also like to suggest a Inca Tech IT50 Power Amp and the Magnum MP100 pre amp, both of which turn up on e-bay now and again.

Also think about the Croft range of products. 

It's a hideous spawn of both. The universe may implode at any moment.
Actually we're safe, I can't be an NVA shill as they have vowed never to sell me anything again, let alone give me freebies. ;-)

...hmmm...

...Buy TQ everyone! Great for all of your domestic appliance needs, and TQ will also make you irresistable to women. (Dave's still trying to clear out his bimbo infestation.)

Seriously, I'm looking forward to trying to get the Claymore up and running soon...

We could turn it into a Single Ended Class A shill, but the Green Goddess is not available in the shops :-D

Brain_Dead

Removed by the control freak

Brain_Dead

Removed by the control freak

Docfoster

Yes Colin.

sovereign

Agree with you there Ben

Ive been from the A40's which are blisteringly good for what you can pick them up for.  to A80's which are the same but with more depth, scale and grunt to the statements which are more again.

uglymusic

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/solid-state-first-watt-sit-2-class-a-10-wpc-conservative-2013-09-10-amplifiers-92101

A Nelson amp worth concidering

How much??? ;-)

Docfoster

Yesterday, how close to a new world record for the number of black acrylic boxes in one room...?

sovereign

Thats some nice kit there!

I thought NVA would explode if used with TQ 

X_X

gone_deaf

...we continue...

The AP30 (how much was it when still around...? (£550 or something?) sounds closer to the AP10P than the P90-TSS, but some of that dust has definitely been bushed out. Things are somewhat more clearly heard. Ah, and a bass line has just kicked in with more depth and clarity than was managed on the AP10P. Less difference at the top end I'd say.
Overall the AP30 is sounding like it could be a main system amp...
My speakers are pretty demanding in terms of sensitivity, so do require some decent effort from their amp, not sure how this compares to Royds...?

Writing this has made me realise what a pointless exercise this is for everyone else.
Important to point out that there's more than power differences at play too of course (e.g. The dual mono stepped attenuators in the P90SA)...

For what it's worth I'd say:
AP10P - Great value. Would be great in 2nd or office system, or with more forgiving speakers. For me in my main system it lacks those final aspects of clarity.
AP30 - Good value. I could live with this in my system. Just about does enough, but could do with a bit more high end sparkle.
P90SA TSS mk3. Do everything I want them to but obviously at a price.
TQ Atom - no idea.

Personally I'd plumb for the P50 A40. My hunch is that 40 would be enough, and would allow you to upgrade more gradually. Mind you, i haven't done the sums on cost.

Only one way to find out of course...

Thanks for the comprehensive comparisons Doc.

I think I'll go for the A40s as they seem to offer the best VFM, even as new. I can then make the jump to the A80s in a couple of years and either take advantage of the the trade-in upgrade path or find some second hand ones and upgrade the pre to a P50sa version.

By authoritative I meant that the amps can drive the bass with enough clout for it not to round off or sound soft which from your test the A40s seem to do fine.

uglymusic

Thats some nice kit there!

I thought NVA would explode if used with TQ 

X_X

Well, mine exploded, too ;-)

Docfoster

Thats some nice kit there!

I thought NVA would explode if used with TQ 

X_X

Well, mine exploded, too ;-)

Thanks Sov. Some of your stuff in there isn't there...?
My NVAs didn't explode, they just formed an abusive cabal. They still play music well, mind.

Docfoster

...we continue...

The AP30 (how much was it when still around...? (£550 or something?) sounds closer to the AP10P than the P90-TSS, but some of that dust has definitely been bushed out. Things are somewhat more clearly heard. Ah, and a bass line has just kicked in with more depth and clarity than was managed on the AP10P. Less difference at the top end I'd say.
Overall the AP30 is sounding like it could be a main system amp...
My speakers are pretty demanding in terms of sensitivity, so do require some decent effort from their amp, not sure how this compares to Royds...?

Writing this has made me realise what a pointless exercise this is for everyone else.
Important to point out that there's more than power differences at play too of course (e.g. The dual mono stepped attenuators in the P90SA)...

For what it's worth I'd say:
AP10P - Great value. Would be great in 2nd or office system, or with more forgiving speakers. For me in my main system it lacks those final aspects of clarity.
AP30 - Good value. I could live with this in my system. Just about does enough, but could do with a bit more high end sparkle.
P90SA TSS mk3. Do everything I want them to but obviously at a price.
TQ Atom - no idea.

Personally I'd plumb for the P50 A40. My hunch is that 40 would be enough, and would allow you to upgrade more gradually. Mind you, i haven't done the sums on cost.

Only one way to find out of course...

Thanks for the comprehensive comparisons Doc.

I think I'll go for the A40s as they seem to offer the best VFM, even as new. I can then make the jump to the A80s in a couple of years and either take advantage of the the trade-in upgrade path or find some second hand ones and upgrade the pre to a P50sa version.

By authoritative I meant that the amps can drive the bass with enough clout for it not to round off or sound soft which from your test the A40s seem to do fine.

If anything of the performance of the A40s can be infered from my AP30 yesterday, then yes, i would feel confident that bass performance would be good.
If not, blame me and return them to NVA.

uglymusic

Nooooooo! Don't mention anyone to do with Chews over there.

He doesn't like us for some reason.

gone_deaf

What is it with Richard at NVA and this forum and other forums? I've seen references on this board that he's not liked and even seen that he's been banned on another forum. Seems odd that someone that produces such well regarded electronics should not be welcomed on forums.

Alan

It is odd. I don't know of any mainstream hifi forums in the UK where he is welcome anymore. This forum was set up after 5 members of his own forum were banned. It's a long story, very personal indeed, and it's best to let sleeping dogs lie.

He does make good sounding kit though, at keen prices. That never changed.

Docfoster

It is odd. I don't know of any mainstream hifi forums in the UK where he is welcome anymore. This forum was set up after 5 members of his own forum were banned. It's a long story, very personal indeed, and it's best to let sleeping dogs lie.

He does make good sounding kit though, at keen prices. That never changed.

+1 +1 +1.

uglymusic

What he said ;-)

sovereign

What is it with Richard at NVA and this forum and other forums? I've seen references on this board that he's not liked and even seen that he's been banned on another forum. Seems odd that someone that produces such well regarded electronics should not be welcomed on forums.

Best not ask unless you have lots of time, big ears and lots of tea and biscuits.

He has been banned from all mainstream forums he has been apart of.

NVA kit however is very good indeed and I'm a BIG fan of it. 

sovereign

Thats some nice kit there!

I thought NVA would explode if used with TQ 

X_X

Well, mine exploded, too ;-)

Thanks Sov. Some of your stuff in there isn't there...?
My NVAs didn't explode, they just formed an abusive cabal. They still play music well, mind.

Yes mate, I seem to have a collection of NVA amps at the moment.  My A80's are leaving me as I have sold them.

None of my NVA's have cooked using TQ black, green or ultra black.   

Brain_Dead

Removed by the control freak

gone_deaf

OK, I won't bring up Richard again. A real shame as I think it's nice to have the participation of manufacturers on forums.