Does anyone oversample?

uglymusic

I've been having a bit of a mammoth listening session this evening, and done my periodic experiment with using Audirvana to oversample my music files.

It doesn't sound good. Perhaps counterintuitively, the sound is duller and less real.

Anyone else's experiences differ?

Docfoster

I used to have a DAC that could select between 96 and 192. I couldn't hear any difference between those 2 upsampling rates.

Colin

If the digital lies are 8bit at 100KHz how will 64bit at 1MHz improve data that was already sampled at 8bit be better, you have got a better source at 8bits with less errors to start with.

Go analog finite - infinite the perfect medium why screw it in the first place just to please data storage and the coms companies. 

The ideal would be to employ the musician to come to your home and perform why take a poor copy.

With that the Wurzel will be coming soon live.  

uglymusic

It's funny, the concept of upsampling acknowledges that Redbook isn't perfect sound. But adding those data points artificially seems to give an artificial sound.

I wonder if there will be a better, more nuanced, approach to upsampling in the future that will get closer to the data points that would result from a higher res recording in the first place?

Colin

How can you get more data out than was there in first place? If you convert it in the first place to a higher resolution yes, it must be like compression and remove some if not all nuance. It is then lost, for ever.

uglymusic

You can calculate the probability of what the data point would be if it had been there in the first place (recorded it at a higher resolution).

Everything in a digital recording is numerical, is it not? So my musings were that the upsampling algos (value guesses) must be inaccurate and that is what is leading to the experience of less reality/rightness I experience every time I play with upsampling.

This leads to the question, is there a piece of software out there that makes better guesses and can make a better listening experience? Or, as I suspect, is Colin is right when he says that we've lost nuance and we'll never get it all back.

Alan

I suspect Colin is absolutely right about missing information, and I must confess to becoming steadily more agreeable to messing about with some vinyl one day.

Although I do think DACs interpolate missing data very well; I haven't heard digital 'fail' yet (in comparison to analogue). In fact, I think that on a set budget, digital is easier to get 'right' to a high standard.

Dave, the Young will always be no good with upsampling. The fact is, it upsamples (or is it over?) everything it receives to 768kHz, before outputting at the chosen sample rate. The advantages offered by this include the digital filtering being well away from the audible spectrum, and it enables the use of steeper filters.

The Audirvana+ algorithms & controls are very comprehensive and afford a new realm of tweakery but to benefit from it you should be using a NOS DAC to start with.

uglymusic

Thanks Alan. That's good on the specifics of the Young, but I was kind of musing about oversampling (it was late last night) from first principles. ie could it ever be sensible for us to oversample? How could you get close enough to what you would have had if you had recorded with all those samples in the first place? How close is close enough? How close will actually give you an increase in listening experience?

I think that that's a different issue from enabling digital filtering and so on.

Alan

Oversampling is done as part of the mastering process, bit it's usually mixed back down for the final cut - again, it's about the filters and their application.

It presumably has some theoretical advantages to oversample again in playback, but it should be thought through thoroughly. Look, for example, at Peter St and his Phasure NOS DAC, which should be used with his proprietary oversampling software (XXHighEnd).

You could probably test the principles with something like a Metrum DAC, or a DDAC with Audirvana+.

uglymusic

Yup. These musings have brought me to NOS DACs.

Maybe one day.

Yomanze

I use a (properly implemented) non-oversampling DAC, sounds the most natural to me.  More like good vinyl, tape, FM, NOT like digital.  When you have listened to a NOS DAC for everyday listening then you will be much more sensitive to the audible effects of oversampling, upsampling and digital filtering, such as a flattening of the soundstage, digital 'sheen' to everything, but especially noticeable on female vocals, loss of natural tone & timbre, lack of dynamic contrast etc.

I think people reporting over smoothness or frequency extremes problems - intermodulation distortion a de-facto fall-down of NOS according to the 'experts' - are using DACs with feedback in their output stages, which can't cope with the ultra-high speed of unfiltered DAC output signals.  

All those eBay TDA1541A designs are pretty useless as a) the complex grounding and power supply requirements of the chip are not met and b) they are using opamp output stages, which means feedback, and thus some nice intermodulation distortion due to the NOS DAC characteristics.

I have an Audiosector DAC (minimal design DAC, blackgates / passive I/V TDA1543) on the way, which I would like to take with my Audial DAC and listen to some of the better Audio Note designs, to see what the differences are (I suspect lovely glowing tubeyness with the Audio Note, and a more honest and intimate sound with my DACs).

Yomanze

The newest DACs like the Sabre are capable of astonishing resolution, and if you're listening out for some micro-details then these DACs can and will edge it, but if you are just sitting back and feeling the music...

uglymusic

Thanks Yomanze

That's very interesting. I have to admit I'm a detail nut who has never knowingly heard an NOS DAC.

In principle, I like the idea of NOS, but don't like the bloom of bad analogue front ends and valve electronics, so hearing one or two NOS DACs must be a priority.

Docfoster

Jive Bunny...?

PAC

I use a (properly implemented) non-oversampling DAC, sounds the most natural to me.  More like good vinyl, tape, FM, NOT like digital.  When you have listened to a NOS DAC for everyday listening then you will be much more sensitive to the audible effects of oversampling, upsampling and digital filtering, such as a flattening of the soundstage, digital 'sheen' to everything, but especially noticeable on female vocals, loss of natural tone & timbre, lack of dynamic contrast etc.

I think people reporting over smoothness or frequency extremes problems - intermodulation distortion a de-facto fall-down of NOS according to the 'experts' - are using DACs with feedback in their output stages, which can't cope with the ultra-high speed of unfiltered DAC output signals.  

All those eBay TDA1541A designs are pretty useless as a) the complex grounding and power supply requirements of the chip are not met and b) they are using opamp output stages, which means feedback, and thus some nice intermodulation distortion due to the NOS DAC characteristics.

I have an Audiosector DAC (minimal design DAC, blackgates / passive I/V TDA1543) on the way, which I would like to take with my Audial DAC and listen to some of the better Audio Note designs, to see what the differences are (I suspect lovely glowing tubeyness with the Audio Note, and a more honest and intimate sound with my DACs).

Spot on.

Despite the technical critics arguments against NOS DACs, I have never been tempted to part with the Droplet as its' NOS DAC implementation (Venerable Phillips TDA 1543 chips x 4) lends a very neutral and harmonious appeal to music which allows listening without fatigue, and it does this without obvious loss of resolution.

I like the Sabre chip although it's not seemingly favoured by "high end" DAC designers for some reason.  I have heard a kit version of the Audionote DAC and whilst very nice sounding, it did seem to smooth over some of the detail...not quite the window on the recording that the TDA1543 DAC produced.  It did however excel in the mid range like few I've heard.

The only sampling I do these days tends to be of the 40% by volume Scottish variety 

Alan

Trudat! Amen, brother.

Colin

Only when the local deli is offering free cheese, then I over over sample, this has made me the blob you see today. I suspect the same principle can and should be applied to the world of the Digitally Scrambling Music Fad we see all around us today.It is called "Ohbeastreality" and then the music is gone.  (a bit over biased here)

uglymusic

:-D

col's got up early to gather magic mushrooms again the the wooded glades of Zomerzet...

Colin

Yep the Not Very Appetizing type, yuk. [..]