Someone won't be happy with the Naim

DocfosterDocfoster
edited January 2014 in Amplifiers
Clicky

And I must say, someone in the Naim publicity department has pulled off something special (perhaps literally ;-) ) getting a hifi product on the front page of Yahoo.
Amusing how seemingly easily Yahoo are impressed by an amplifier that can connect to "vinyl, CD or digital music sources", Mind you, my "Statement" amp can't really connect direct to vinyl..

Comments

  • PACPAC
    "statement" price as well, all bad for general hifi publicity at a ridiculous £125K.  Someone with more money than sense will end up buying one though.
  • uglymusicuglymusic
    There are lots of Naim maniacs/aficionados out there, many with more money than sense! :-D
  • StupinderStupinder
    I think this is good for the industry as it is generating interest outside the closed shop.
    Will they sell many? - probably a few to a few wealthy individuals who are not primarily concerned with audiophilia but do want "the best".... but that's not really the point i'd suggest.
    More likely is that this is a marketing exercise aimed at stimulating interest in products further down the product line - "Wow that's amazing but it's also $600 000 so I'll never be able to afford it. However, what I can afford, if I save a bit, is the amp at $5000 (or whatever)" Audio Note do the same with their sliding scale of kit - can't afford the Ongaku then buy the I Zero. The fashion industry does it with their haute-couture range - no one but the exceedingly wealthy can afford but most can afford to buy a bottle of perfume at xmas so they feel they've bought into the brand.
    I'm not sure about this evangelical "it's a rip off and I must fight against it" thing you see on some forums. If there is a market there for a product then someone will produce a product to fill that gap and all power to them for doing so.
    For better or worse we live in the society that we do  - if people feel so strongly about "rip offs" and the unfair state of the world then do something that will make a real change to the real injustices in the world rather than harping on about legitimate companies providing employment for a good few folk in an industry that, in real terms, very few give a monkey's about.
  • uglymusicuglymusic
    My view is that I don't have to buy it, and I don't have any say in how a prospective purchaser spends their money.

    I'm sure Naim are very happy to see threads like this one, with the differing points of view.
  • DocfosterDocfoster
    I like stu's post. If Ferrari made a £16k hatchback it would sell well because they are a brand associated with the best / highly expensive. Having such a statement and pricey product does make Naim into Ferrari (obviously), but will add somewhat to the prestige of the Naim brand in the minds of all but the most fanatical of hifi inverted-snobs.
    And Dave, quite right. No one can really care about how other people spend their money nor to what kit someone else listens; except to the extent that it threatens their expressed opinions or cause and so their ego. Tussles on audio forums are all about protecting one's sense of status and identity. Nothing more. (Happy / resigned to include myself in that.)
  • DocfosterDocfoster
    ...For those who make a living from hifi, i can see the situation is more complicated.
  • StupinderStupinder
    ...For those who make a living from hifi, i can see the situation is more complicated.
    I'm sure it is, but at the end of the day it's the big companies in hifi who generate the most sales and therefore revenues. They tend to reinvest and as such provide much needed employment - for example the Naim/Focal partnership employs 325 people (source Wiki). Don't forget these companies are also contributing significantly to the public purse too.
    More artisinal companies certainly have their place in the mix (apart from the Techy 1210 and my transport all my kit is from these kind of companies) but the revenues they produce are relatively small individually and they support relatively few people in employment individually in comparison to the big names.
    Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the little guy making cracking kit and selling it direct or otherwise at a modest margin, but their modest profits go to support them and their own rather than employing lots of people from society at large. The counter argument to this will be that the smaller guy is buying PCBs, casework and what not from external companies and so indirectly providing employment opportunities!
    As always there are two sides to every coin and i'm somewhat distrustful of folk with a vested interest forever shouting down the big names much the same as I would be if the big names started slating the smaller companies.


  • DocfosterDocfoster
    I think i made myself unclear. My point is that most of the ranting that goes on on hifi forums (and elsewhere) has the remote cause of pride / status / ego, whatever the proximate cause(s) might appear be to the protagonists. This apparent lack of awareness can be all the worse when a hifi businessmen's livelihood is on the line. (Not always of course, as the rational and humble hifi businessmen here amply demonstrate.)
    Stu - it is because of this that I share your distrust (good word) of such individuals. The powerful (and more complicated) forces at work out of sight of their conscious minds can make such individuals even more biased, hypocritical and lunatic than the rest of us.
    There is a great book by Robert Trivers 'Deceit and self-deception: deceiving yourself the better to deceive others' that looks at the evolutionary and cognitive mechanisms that explain these sorts of behaviours in all if us.
  • PACPAC
    edited January 2014
    It's exactly this type of marketing that gives the industry a bad name irrespective of sales volumes.  It generates chatter ("no marketing is bad marketing") but forget the hype and costs for a minute.  First things first, the bench-mark for the "best" is a virtual one, so rather irrelevant.  It's just hifi and any company worth it's salt can design and build a statement product, but without independent objective evaluation (NOT hif reviewers' subjective opinions) and a very large focus group feedback (independent listeners), it all becomes rather meaningless, silly and ostentatious to say the least.

    Just because company "A" (lets use Ben's Ferrari analogy) usually makes £150K super cars, doesn't mean that if they introduced a £10K equivalent, that it would be any better than any other 10K car.  It's likely to sell on brand name alone, so no, this is NOT a good thing to advance the hifi industry as it promises nothing for a vast majority of music lovers.  It is a good thing for Naim though, I'd agree with that. It is a rich toy for a wealthy individual.

    The best of British to them though, and I mean this, I wish them well.  I have nothing against the company at all, but lets not be silly about it, it is a marketing exercise pure and simple.  they haven't sold any yet;  it was unveiled I believe at Munich at the high-end show and will probably never sell in anything but exceptionally small numbers to rich oil-sheiks who dont care what it sounds like.

    Now if naim could offer a sensibly priced amp with the build quality of their amps from 30 years ago, I for one would be far more interested and take it seriously.
  • uglymusicuglymusic
    But, on the other hand, it does try to put hi-fi into an aspirational category that it hasn't been in since - when? - the 70s. If it gets people thinking about getting something that makes decent sound and they feel they can show off to their friends, that can't be a bad thing.
  • PACPAC
    edited January 2014
    But this is where I think I'd differ in how I view it.  For me, and for many I know (including a vast majority of my customers), "aspirational" has little or nothing to do with cost, and everything to do with design and performance.

    I don't believe for a second that the younger generation would consider it aspirational at all, in fact they'd most probably have a good laugh at "hifi for the price of a house".

    I also disagree that there's been little in hifi since the 70's to be aspirational about...in fact there's been great examples all the way through to today.  In the 70's people aspired to a 401, Kefs or Quads etc or the new and wonderful B&O lifestyle systems.

     In the 80's it was (for the younger generation) things like Mission 753 speakers, or for the well healed, Nakimchi Dragon casstte decks, Kef Reference, Quads, Luxman amps, Linn LP12's,  new fangled CDPs from any manuffacturer (until we all learned better and rejected the awful things that most early players were)

    In the 90's things like the AN (Japan) Ongaku were aspirational but stratospherically priced.  Then there was a jump in the number of speaker manufacturers flooding the market with new models and loads of new amp choices.  In fact, I recall the 90's as being the decade of the affordable quality budget amp, such as the Rotels, NADs etc. all of which were aspirational to the enthusiast starting out, but with some serious high end kit available too. 

    The noughties saw a jump in the number of really high priced items of kit, any of which could be argued were aspirational but few of which are remembered today because no-one sold many and they fell into obscurity.

    The hifi that has stood the test of time remains well thought out, engineered and designed.  Michell Gyros, SME tonearms, the irrepressible march of great sounding ever cheaper DACs, and possibly the most iconic design statements to emerge for the younger generation, Dr Beat headphones!

    Nope, I'm pretty certain that this does nothing for anyone in terms of aspiration because something vital is missing, and that is "context".  It currently has none, but that's not to say it will remain that way.  Naim may get lucky, sell a bucket load because it might be discovered that it gives something to high end speakers etc that no other amp can bring, stands the test of time and becomes a future classic...but I doubt it.  They are statement products which have little real point imho unless they break new technical or design ground or offer new levels of performance easily on a par with the cost.  £125K buys a lifetime of gig tickets...
  • AlanAlan
    It also apparently buys valves mounted to heatsinks, which further endorses the view that this is all from from Naim's publicity dept, and indicates what the whole project represents.

    It's no more interesting than a concept car at a trade show, it doesn't necessarily indicate the company's future direction or mean anything outside the industry.

    We audiophiles sit here imagining its all for the 'more money than sense' set (who aren't real audiophiles anyway...), yet they probably don't notice such mainstream branded equipment - there's just no kudos with it. I remember seeing a photo of the Russian president's HiFi the other year, it was stratosphereically priced hand built gear from Switzerland which most forum posters had never heard of. I imagine Naim would not have got a look in any more than Rega did.

    It does Naim's I'mage no harm at all, they sell a couple to footballers & get mentioned in FHM or something. They need to maintain a certain image if they are to keep putting amps in Bentleys, and this is all perfectly in line with expectations for the real world clients, who provide the bread & butter sales for Naim.
  • ColinColin
    TOCA made flagship A Classes the 300W,200W and the 100W and with luck (In my point of view) would only ever make one set of each. They were crazy money to make and would cost double crazy money to sell.
    It was just to show what was possible in single ended class A, many companies do this in the case of TOCA it was backed by a large Germany company. To do it today ?? no thanks.
    But you can the circuits are available in Wireless World, so be brave make your own.
  • AlanAlan
    TOCA made flagship A Classes thei 300W,200W and the 100W and with luck (In my point of view) would only ever make one set of each. They were crazy money to make and would cost double crazy money to sell.
    It was just to show what was possible in single ended class A, many companies do this in the case of TOCA it was backed by a large Germany company. To do it today ?? no thanks.
    But you can the circuits are available in Wireless World, so be brave make your own.
    'Zackerly. Something to put a company on the map, an achievement to be proud of. Like putting valves on a heatsink.
    But you can the circuits are available in Wireless World, so be brave make your own.
    OK den. :)
  • StupinderStupinder
    I'd say these kind of products are aspirational (rightly or wrongly) to many. People (in the mainstream) are no longer concerned what offers great quality vs price-point, they are concerned with what will get them talked about by their peers and what is perceived to be the "best" on the market. Look at Beats By Dre - are they the best £300 (or whatever) headphone on the market? I'd suggest they're not but they are popular because of the people/celebs who are seen to be wearing them  - people want a slice of that celeb' "look at me i wear the same headphones as that bird from Big Brother"
    The fact that a 10K Ferrari may not be a patch on the "real thing" doesn't really matter to many - it's that label on the front that counts. Look at the whole Burberry and Louis Vuitton thing - it doesn't even matter if the product is genuine or not so long as they are seen to have the right label.
    I imagine that Naim, or any company producing this kind of "concept", will actually give a few away to high profile individuals to have them on show when 'My Posh House That You'll Never Be Able to Afford Magazine" come round to do a photo shoot. Get it seen in the mags, folk will ask what's that and the trickle down effect to the more mass-market will happen.
    I think we need to take our audiophile hat off to understand this as an idea. Keeping the hat on restricts us to thinking in an audiophile way and I sincerely believe that this is not what this product is about.
    Yes, Naim may well sell some to well healed folks, but the photo opportunity and chatter caused by it are likely to be much more important a tool to them as folk who look to buy a Hifi may no longer see that B&O (however good, bad or indifferent the product may be) are the only ones in the marketplace...and a few may well choose the Naim brand.



  • PACPAC
    edited January 2014
    ...and this is good for hifi in general terms how?

    Enthusiasts who make up 99% of the market will buy a brand that is recognised for decent kit, yes, but putting up something that hasn't (yet) been put into production, with little or no claims of what it actually offers technically or advancement-wise will only ever be seen as a marketing stunt.  It wouldn't encourage me or anyone else to buy into the brand.

    No at least with Dr Beats you get a (in relatively reasonably speaking terms) trendy set of phones that the rest of the "youf" will react to with "hey, wicked man, respeK!..thems sick cans!" or some such phrase.  It doesn't matter if they're not the best, that's not the point.

    I respectfully suggest that at £125K for an amp it does matter, otherwise it's marketing pure and simple, and you'd have to be pretty "simple" to think "wow, that's aspirational!" 'cause it isnt.  Just because they may sell half a dozen of the things is immaterial (not to them though).  Aspirational must be because it has something others don't have and that something has to be good.  A lot of large manufacturers have done it though.  Some of the kit has actually been aspirational from a performance/looks/build POV, but these amps?  Ahem.  Read the blurb carefully.  The amps are only the start of a "suggested" £500,000 naim system.  Yeah, right, I'll get me cheque book.  Soz, all this does is turn me OFF the brand.

    I could easily design and build a set of speakers for £100K.  Does that make them aspirational?  Nope. It makes them expensive speakers.
  • StupinderStupinder
    I'm not suggesting for one second that the Naim amp is in any way poor and I would have thought that actually the amp and pre would likely be really rather good... but it is "something that others don't have" and so I'd suggest that by the given criteria above they are therefore potentially aspirational.

    Do enthusiasts make up 99% of the market - I'm not so sure about that. I was chatting to a dealer in Monaco a while ago and he reckoned the majority of his customers were simply people who just loved music....admittedly they are also likely fairly wealthy people that just like music :-). Perhaps it is 99% "enthusiasts" but I'm guessing the reality is that it's no where near this figure.

    The reason I personally think it's good for the hifi industry is that the Naim amps are generating interest beyond the realms of a few "enthusiasts" and getting column inches in media away from the hifi media - surely a good thing as it potentially opens the door to other less well known brands. I also think that an increase the broader interest in high-end hifi will encourage the filter down effect and folks will potentially buy kit that is "affordable".

    With regards to Beats then I'd suggest that the vast majority of folk who buy them have never heard them before spending on them, BUT they do see rich and famous folk wearing them - this is the spark for the "respekk/sick cans" comments and not the fact that their mates have them. Had Beats given 200 kids on the street a pair of cans to wear and show of to their mates rather than spending tons of cash getting celebrity endorsements would they enjoy the cult status they do now? Nah, they spend money on endorsements and ads because it works for them!

    Yes, Paul could design a pair of £100 000 loudspeakers but as great as his current products may well be his "brand" isn't at the point of being able to pull such an expensive product off just yet and so they would be seen as little more than expensive speakers however earth shatteringly good they may be.  A strong "brand" such as Naim can get away with this kind of thing as they already have a relatively high profile brand, known for relatively pricey kit.

  • DocfosterDocfoster
    Yes, Paul could design a pair of £100 000 loudspeakers.
    Come on, let's have a whip round and see what Paul can do for £100k.
    B-)
  • StupinderStupinder
    Aspirational
    must be because it has something others don't have and that something
    has to be good. - See more at:
    http://www.audiochews.com/discussion/1308/someone-won039t-be-happy-with-the-naim#Item_16
    Aspirational
    must be because it has something others don't have and that something
    has to be good. - See more at:
    http://www.audiochews.com/discussion/1308/someone-won039t-be-happy-with-the-naim#Item_16
    Aspirational
    must be because it has something others don't have and that something
    has to be good. - See more at:
    http://www.audiochews.com/discussion/1308/someone-won039t-be-happy-with-the-naim#Item_16
    Yes, Paul could design a pair of £100 000 loudspeakers.
    Come on, let's have a whip round and see what Paul can do for £100k.
    B-)
    Yeh, given what folk have said about the speakers he's designed so far I imagine they'd be pretty great!
  • StupinderStupinder
    Interesting article on CNN from a couple of days ago about the beats by Dre phenomenon  http://edition.cnn.com/2014/01/13/tech/beats-headphones-audio-market/index.html
  • PACPAC
    edited January 2014
    I'm not suggesting for one second that the Naim amp is in any way poor and I would have thought that actually the amp and pre would likely be really rather good... but it is "something that others don't have" and so I'd suggest that by the given criteria above they are therefore potentially aspirational.

    Do enthusiasts make up 99% of the market - I'm not so sure about that. I was chatting to a dealer in Monaco a while ago and he reckoned the majority of his customers were simply people who just loved music....admittedly they are also likely fairly wealthy people that just like music :-). Perhaps it is 99% "enthusiasts" but I'm guessing the reality is that it's no where near this figure.

    The reason I personally think it's good for the hifi industry is that the Naim amps are generating interest beyond the realms of a few "enthusiasts" and getting column inches in media away from the hifi media - surely a good thing as it potentially opens the door to other less well known brands. I also think that an increase the broader interest in high-end hifi will encourage the filter down effect and folks will potentially buy kit that is "affordable".

    With regards to Beats then I'd suggest that the vast majority of folk who buy them have never heard them before spending on them, BUT they do see rich and famous folk wearing them - this is the spark for the "respekk/sick cans" comments and not the fact that their mates have them. Had Beats given 200 kids on the street a pair of cans to wear and show of to their mates rather than spending tons of cash getting celebrity endorsements would they enjoy the cult status they do now? Nah, they spend money on endorsements and ads because it works for them!

    Yes, Paul could design a pair of £100 000 loudspeakers but as great as his current products may well be his "brand" isn't at the point of being able to pull such an expensive product off just yet and so they would be seen as little more than expensive speakers however earth shatteringly good they may be.  A strong "brand" such as Naim can get away with this kind of thing as they already have a relatively high profile brand, known for relatively pricey kit.

    Some fair points Stu and really what I was trying to get at myself.  I think that the point I'm making is that it's not good for the very reasons that you think it is good!  :))

    I agree, no-matter what I or any "cottage industry" manufacturer can come up with, irrespective of quality or performance, it's the branding that leads the global market in sales volumes. I see good, solid reasons for successful brands to be supported (ie in old fashioned terms they must know what they're doing and therefore create good products) but sadly, all too often in modern times, their spin doctors and marketing gurus use this to peddle far from decent kit for the money.  As it is hifi trends (what's in fashion this week?), technology for the sake of technology and a marketing "hook" seem to be the most important things to many firms, and NOT sound quality, universality or build quality/vfm.  

    The smaller folk, like myself, who try and tread water in this floating, ever changing minefield, have only our parochial reputations (generally speaking) generated from trying to put quality (build and sound quality) first whilst trying to provide great VFM.  I sincerely hope that I provide these things but am not the one who should be the judge of that, but that's deviation from the discussion.

    The very fact that the rich and famous are seen with things is no good reason to suspect they're actually any good, just that they're fashionable or expensive, or both.  That tells us nothing about their performance or quality.  Whilst that's not important to a great many people, particularly the younger generation, it is important to me, hence I see marketing of frankly quite ridiculously expensive (untested and unproved) hifi as nothing more than a damaging gimmick bringing the industry into disrepute.  Who with their feet on the ground can take these people seriously?  That's completely irrelevant to them  as the point of their exercise is exactly as you suggest;  that's why it goes against the grain for me.  

    It would be far more palatable had the marketing come after first hooking a customer wanting a set of these things built, then they could market in a less vulgar and more honest manner with something like "we have recently designed and built this fantastic set up for a customer who specified it was what he wanted"  then go on to explain what it is, what it does and to showcase their expertise. It would have to be exquisitely finished too.

    However, that's not the case.  Its a stunt and not one I personally think is good for the industry.

    Ps....a whip round and a £100K budget and I could give a cast iron guarantee of producing something very special indeed (in conjunction with a major driver designer and manufacturer and amplifier manufacture) as for that money, a first class active set up is what I'd produce ;)

    Hoever, I wouldn't do it even if you provided me with £100K as that would take up valuable time and resources where I could actually be designing and making things that a vast majority of music lovers and enthusiasts actually want and can afford :D
  • ColinColin
    Aspiration is another key factor for lots of music lovers like car owners to aspire from the humdrum Ford KA to a Smart Car for example.
    If I had room and the money I have a full blown orchestra with Jon Lord conducting but I am stuck with ABBA. 
    Shame ain't it.

    :))
  • StupinderStupinder
    The very fact that the rich and famous are seen with things is no good reason to suspect they're actually any good, just that they're fashionable or expensive, or both.  That tells us nothing about their performance or quality.  Whilst that's not important to a great many people, particularly the younger generation, it is important to me, hence I see marketing of frankly quite ridiculously expensive (untested and unproved) hifi as nothing more than a damaging gimmick bringing the industry into disrepute.  Who with their feet on the ground can take these people seriously?  That's completely irrelevant to them  as the point of their exercise is exactly as you suggest;  that's why it goes against the grain for me. 
    Agree with regards your point about the fact that something being supported by a celeb is no guarantee of quality or performance but the point is this will bring high end audio out of the closed confines of the audiophile closed shop.
    With regards to untested I would imagine that Naim have tested, retested and run their new amp through countless listening panels to get the product they have - they will have also invested countless man hours and dosh in developing it, getting it through the health and safety hoops etc. A company with the reputation of Naim is not going to go to market with a product that they don't think is proven - brand suicide - but who really knows how a market will react to a product until they put it to that market!
    I read a comment yesterday from someone who actually heard the Naim kit at CES and they described as " ... the first audio product I've come across that I feel comes close
    to warranting the extreme high pricing of the ultra high end."
  • PACPAC
    You misunderstand Stu..I meant independently tested/reviewed.  I'm quite sure that they have done their homework, but irrespective of what one individual says at a show, there's literally hundreds of amps that could probably deliver for a fraction of the cost. An amplifier isn't magical pixie dust, it's there to provide a 20Hz to 20KHz signal into a specific speaker load at low distortion.  Plenty of amps do this well without having to cost 125K. 
  • uglymusicuglymusic
    edited January 2014
    it's there to provide a 20Hz to 20KHz signal into a specific speaker load at low distortion.  Plenty of amps do this well without having to cost 125K. 
    You're getting very close to 'all amplifiers sound the same if they measure the same', here, aren't you?

    At the very least, it's a grand oversimplification.
  • ColinColin
    Tube, Silicon,Germanium or even Naimium. 
    The Focal point must be talent to design and make it all.  
    The value of learning from this apparent outrageous design like space travel should be the beneficial spin off for other products.
    And knowledge costs money, which as to be found, remember Uni and the stupid jobs we had to do to pay for food and records ? I do. 
    Naim,s assets were about £5M for 2012 so this would have been a big investment for them, so good luck to them, the Brit's love knocking people down that try and grow out of there perceived slot.
    We are very good at running them down in fact the best in the world for that, we did it for so many inventor and thinker and still do, but it is amazing we still breed humans that want to better the world and themselves. Despite the hostile environment that they will meet from there so called peers.

    So I say    

    Go for it Naim and anybody else who has the guts to be different and change things.

  • PACPAC
    it's there to provide a 20Hz to 20KHz signal into a specific speaker load at low distortion.  Plenty of amps do this well without having to cost 125K. 
    You're getting very close to 'all amplifiers sound the same if they measure the same', here, aren't you?

    At the very least, it's a grand oversimplification.
    Not at all David.  Amps most certainly do not all sound the same, and I've never said anything of the sort,  but lets be sensible here...diminishing returns as any of us who've attended hifi shows knows, kicks in well below £125K.  More expensive doesn't always equate to better at this price level anyway.  It's totally out of context anyway unless the rest of the system is considered along with the room, and here's the thing...the suggested system is half a million quid  :))

    I recently heard a pair of monoblocks worth £150,000 (the only pair of their type in the UK) driving some speakers which were circa £20K.  I was left totally underwhelmed by the experience.  I'm not saying this is the same, just that it's a marketing exercise.  Nothing wrong in that but I seem to be the only one here who thinks it's not a great advert for the industry.  perhaps I'm being over puritanical about things but hey, I can only call it as I see it.  I respect what everyone else has to say even though I (obviously) do not agree with it.
     

    I'm all for advancement and changing things for the better through advancement. I'm just not sure that I see this here or that Naim have explained exactly how their magic technological advances will trickle down or indeed if there are any magical technological advances here.


  • DocfosterDocfoster
    I wasn't expecting this thread to be so divisive. And yet it has opened some divisions.
    I'm feeling that if the "hifi community" is viewed as a single entity from the outside, then the experience on the inside is that it is made of various different subcultures each with it's own nuanced emphases on what matters.
    My thought is that the Naim Statement is clearly a siginficant product for hifi folk, at least symbolically, for at least two reasons. Firstly because it resonates with our hopes and fears about how the hifi world as a single entity is viewed from the outside. Secondly because it embodies either the the existing aspirations or moral revulsions of different points of view within the hifi world.
    Speaking personally, I might feel more remote from the hifi world than others here may. Having said that, my initial response to seeing the news on Yahoo was "Ooo, look! WE'RE famous!" After that I did have a slight feeling of embarrassment that should anyone "from the outside" make an association between me and the "hifi world" they might think "what a cock" for their perception of my being associated with a product that could not possibly supply £125k of pleasure to a single person of normal means. But I didn't feel that very strongly.
    Conversely, my experience from within the the hifi community is that I have absolutely no association with such products. I have always been a niche person, drawn relentlessly and pathetically to cultural features that appear "cool" or "underground" or "little known but excellent" (everything from the music of Cymande to kit from NVA and RFC to the friendly wisdoms of Audiochews ;-) ). I have always felt disassociated from the mainstream. This has led me to uncover many of the aforementioned gems, but has always left me with the uncomfortable and unedifying feeling that I am something of an inverted snob. Anyway, there's no danger of my identifying with or having anything to do with a status product from Naim so it doesn't bother me when I'm "inside" the hifi community. At the same time, I don't feel animosity towards it either, it is just disassociation. Overall I feel that I don't care about it very much, although as a significant product I would make a point of listening to it if I had the chance (e.g. at a show).
  • uglymusicuglymusic
    it's there to provide a 20Hz to 20KHz signal into a specific speaker load at low distortion.  Plenty of amps do this well without having to cost 125K. 
    You're getting very close to 'all amplifiers sound the same if they measure the same', here, aren't you?

    At the very least, it's a grand oversimplification.
    Not at all David.  Amps most certainly do not all sound the same, and I've never said anything of the sort,  but lets be sensible here...diminishing returns as any of us who've attended hifi shows knows, kicks in well below £125K.  More expensive doesn't always equate to better at this price level anyway.  It's totally out of context anyway unless the rest of the system is considered along with the room, and here's the thing...the suggested system is half a million quid  :))

    I recently heard a pair of monoblocks worth £150,000 (the only pair of their type in the UK) driving some speakers which were circa £20K.  I was left totally underwhelmed by the experience.  I'm not saying this is the same, just that it's a marketing exercise.  Nothing wrong in that but I seem to be the only one here who thinks it's not a great advert for the industry.  perhaps I'm being over puritanical about things but hey, I can only call it as I see it.  I respect what everyone else has to say even though I (obviously) do not agree with it.
     

    I'm all for advancement and changing things for the better through advancement. I'm just not sure that I see this here or that Naim have explained exactly how their magic technological advances will trickle down or indeed if there are any magical technological advances here.


    I didn't say you did, Paul. Just that I thought we were getting dangerously close.

    I'd also say that I've never liked any seriously expensive high end gear that I've heard. I know that's a sweeping generalisation, but it's the way it is.

    Moreover, I don't expect to like the Naim amps because Naim's sonic priorities don't match mine, and one of their previous 'statement' products, the wardrobe-sized DBL(?) speakers were absolutely horrible to my ears.
  • uglymusicuglymusic
    I wasn't expecting this thread to be so divisive. And yet it has opened some divisions.
    I'm feeling that if the "hifi community" is viewed as a single entity from the outside, then the experience on the inside is that it is made of various different subcultures each with it's own nuanced emphases on what matters.
    My thought is that the Naim Statement is clearly a siginficant product for hifi folk, at least symbolically, for at least two reasons. Firstly because it resonates with our hopes and fears about how the hifi world as a single entity is viewed from the outside. Secondly because it embodies either the the existing aspirations or moral revulsions of different points of view within the hifi world.
    Speaking personally, I might feel more remote from the hifi world than others here may. Having said that, my initial response to seeing the news on Yahoo was "Ooo, look! WE'RE famous!" After that I did have a slight feeling of embarrassment that should anyone "from the outside" make an association between me and the "hifi world" they might think "what a cock" for their perception of my being associated with a product that could not possibly supply £125k of pleasure to a single person of normal means. But I didn't feel that very strongly.
    Conversely, my experience from within the the hifi community is that I have absolutely no association with such products. I have always been a niche person, drawn relentlessly and pathetically to cultural features that appear "cool" or "underground" or "little known but excellent" (everything from the music of Cymande to kit from NVA and RFC to the friendly wisdoms of Audiochews ;-) ). I have always felt disassociated from the mainstream. This has led me to uncover many of the aforementioned gems, but has always left me with the uncomfortable and unedifying feeling that I am something of an inverted snob. Anyway, there's no danger of my identifying with or having anything to do with a status product from Naim so it doesn't bother me when I'm "inside" the hifi community. At the same time, I don't feel animosity towards it either, it is just disassociation. Overall I feel that I don't care about it very much, although as a significant product I would make a point of listening to it if I had the chance (e.g. at a show).
    I'm with you, Ben. As much as possible, I avoid brands and labels and like to seek out the stuff that is great on its own merits, rather than on a large marketing budget's.

    However, I take my hat off to Naim for taking the risk of launching this product, even if I don't have the slightest ambition of owning it, even if I win the lottery.
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