New speaker project - Goodmans Magisters

edited April 22 in Loudspeakers
I'm very happy with my 1st system speakers (Goodmans Goodwoods, reworked by RFC Paul), but couldn't resist making a play for these, as a possible project...
image
Probably not those exact Goodmans Magisters (were those Alan's...?), but exactly like those.
Looking forward to seeing how the big (15 inch @-) ;) woofers perform, when I pick them up on Friday.
Will start with a basic installing of some new binding posts and rewire to crossover.
Not so where to go after that... Try to rebuild the crossover (like for like)...? Try to installing some new tweeters (possibly the same Monacor ones that Paul fitted in my Goodmans)...? Who knows. No idea what I'm going to do with them ultimately, or where they might live...
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Comments

  • You could always swap out the Wharfedales and be a 100% Goodmans household.
  • A good old fashioned bit of brand loyalty.
    I like it.
    I can't stop my brain equating Goodmans with the 1970s BBC of my childhood home (quality, elitist, aspirational, middle class) and Wharfdale with with ITV (populist, base, look-down-onable). ;-)
  • What are you saying?

    I've only owned Wharfedales.
  • edited March 21
    That my mum cared about how she was regarded / judged by her peers (cared about her perception of that judgement anyway), and that the TV channels that were watched in her home informed her perception / fears about peer judgement. No idea how close her perception was to reality. (I never felt ostracised by the wider community for my having a sneaky peak at wrestling on "World of Sport"....)
    Re my speakers, I do see my Wharfdalea as a bit more plasticy / flimsy / brash than my Goodmans. I'm polarising to make a point there, but there is a sense of difference between the two (i think).
    Now get back to your Jeremy Kyle filled PVR, David... ;-)
  • To be serious for a millisecond...

    I'm sure the Wharfedales retailed for much less than the Goodmans, and probably came from a decade or two later. So I'm sure they are flimsier.

    And less about my PVR proclivities!
  • Your insight into original pricing is interesting.
    To concur, the Goodmans I have seem and sound more substantial and "quality" than the Whardales I've had. I don't know their exact respective release dates, tho as you suggest, the Glendales look more recent than the Goodwoods. Possibly late v early 70s...?
    I have some Goodman's RB20 that may be more contemporaries of the Glendales. The Whsrfdale Shelton's I have are especially weak. Leant then to a friend who (surprisingly) is very happy with them. Oddly he uses them with a Musical Fidelity A3.2 amp. £1k monster integrated from the 2000s meets £20 charity shop 1970s speakers... :-/
  • Have you picked them up? Any initial thoughts on those 15 inchers??
  • Suzy6toes said:
    Have you picked them up? Any initial thoughts on those 15 inchers??
    Don't encourage him. You know what he's like!
  • edited March 24
    Thanks for remembering this.
    Yes indeed! A nice little drive down to the south coast this morning...
    image

    Basically they're about the size of a washing machine. Hilarious how they dwarf the Goodwoods. :-D

    First thing was to stick in a temporary tweeter replacement on the left channel. I pinched one form an RB20 from my loft collectiojn...

    image

    With all 6 drivers working, they sound huge. Exactly what I like in that respect. Being only 5' 6.5" myself, I usually play down the "size matters" truism in all things but speakers. Love big boys like this, I do. The bass on the Magisters is pretty effortless and deep, but it is the overall scale that is really addictive. Utterly engaging.
    They are no where near as polished, balanced or smooth as the RFC - Goodwoods, but they do sound gorgeous.

    image

    I'm about to fit some proper binding posts.
    Also, the only significant fly in the ointment is that the trebble is a little brash. In the hope of smoothing things in the upper registers I've ordered a pair of new Monacor ones. Hopefully they'll bed-in OK. We'll see how that goes.

    I may also tackle a bit of a crossover rebuild at some point. I'll need some guidance with that...(caps and stuff...?) I'll get some piccies of the existing ones when I get out the monster 15 inch drivers to fit the binding posts...
  • Him ginormous!
  • Trudat. :-)

    ...Binding posts sorted, so I can use my usual speaker cable direct to the speakers now.

    Also, I took out all the foam (about 4 inch thick, against all the internal walls). Sounds better with none of it in than it does with all of it in, but may be worth experimenting with some of it in.
  • Hope you've added 'reinforce the floor' to that list of jobs.
    Loving the photo of the poor wee RB20 that has been organ harvested then cast aside there! And the image of your lift collection.
    Let us know how the Monacors work out.

    Btw, 5' 6.5"..... You didn't really think I'd let you get away with that did you???
  • image

    And yes, I'd hope you'd let me get away with the truth.

    ;-)
  • Best totem pole ever !
    I'd ask you how high it is, but wouldn't trust your tape measure ;-)
  • edited March 25
    Didn't you one report your speakers to be 86 inches high...? :-p

    Been addressing an issue with the doping around the dust cap on one of the woofers today. This happens on a lot of 70s Goodmans. At first glance it appears that excess doping must have pooled around in the centre of the speaker cone when the doping was first applied, but actually what's happened is that over the years the doping pulls away from the speaker cone towards its centre and with it, lifts the dust cap.
    I've just (very carefully) cut out the lifted doping with a Stanley knife, and then used PVA to stick down the dust cap and dope the the cone where the old lifted doping has been surgically removed.

    image

    The PVA dries clear.
    (The large wine glass acts as a paper weight while the glue is setting.)
  • :\"> oh yeah, I did do that.

    You're pretty experienced at addressing these doping issues now I reckon. I can't work out when you say...

    "At first glance it appears that excess doping must have pooled around in the centre of the speaker cone when the doping was first applied, but actually what's happened is that over the years the doping pulls away from the speaker cone towards its centre and with it, lifts the dust cap"

    ....if this is something you knew from past experience, or worked out on this project.
    I have to admit that your adventures in speaker refurbishment is inspiring. Tho I think I'd start on a pair that I could actually fit into my house!!
  • edited March 26
    To clarify the lifted-doping things...
    I suppose what I'm really saying is that "at my first glance it appeared to me..."... :-D
    The doping is some sort of thick liquid that was painted on to the drivers in the factory (40 or more years ago).
    I imagined the person who did the painting to have applied lashings of the stuff. Really slopping it on (quite often the metal surround of the driver is splattered with it).
    Here is a reasonably recent picture of a pair of Goodwoods (not mine) where the bass drivers have been doped...
    image
    You see around the dust caps that the doping looks a bit different... It has a surface which is "flat", not sloping in sympathy with the surface of the driver underneath.
    My misconception was that This was due to an excess of doping being painted on back in the day, and that the excess had run down into the centre of the speaker where it had collected in a little pool.
    I was wrong.
    What has actually happened is that over the years the (dried) doping has (for some reason) lifted away from the surface of the driver (and taken the dustcap up with it). Hence there is a small gap in between the driver and the lifted layer of doping. The doping over the rest of the surface of the driver is fine.

    It only occurred to me yesterday. Probably because the lifted doping in the centre of one of my Magister bass drivers was only lifted on one side of the dust-cap, giving a lie to the "pool of excess doping" myth in my brain.
  • Ah, yes....I remember my Maggies well. 
    I bought Alan Brown's pair.  Loved them.  Loved the rough character that brought excellent a huge music.  The plan was to upgrade them, I can't remember the story, but I think Alan lusted them back from my hands or something, all money exchanged and and above board.
    Great speakers, get stuck in!

    imageimage

  • How kind of the guards to allow you a hifi system in your cell at Guantanamo, James.
  • edited March 26
    Yes. "Rough character" is right. I'm eager for the new tweeters to arrive to see how much that tames them. I'm not a big fan of the old Goodmans DT-3 tweeter, nor the ones in the RB20s.
    Tho odd how the Maggies are so charming despite some lack of top end sweetness.

    (I'm relieved to read that Allan's lusty needs were not met for free.)
  • Docfoster said:
    How kind of the guards to allow you a hifi system in your cell at Guantanamo, James.
    Yes in those days I had to take off the 15" drivers and use the speaker as a toilet.  
  • Docfoster said:
     (I'm relieved to read that Allan's lusty needs were not met for free.)
    Your more clever than you look, well done for turning this back round and throwing it back to me. 
    Only money for speakers were exchanged, all tea and biscuits were exchanged for free. What do you take me for?
  • edited March 26
    sovereign said:

    Yes in those days I had to take off the 15" drivers and use the speaker as a toilet.  

    Cabinet damping.
    Cabinet dumping.
  • edited March 26
    sovereign said:

    Your more clever than you look, well done for turning this back round and throwing it back to me. 

    Only money for speakers were exchanged, all tea and biscuits were exchanged for free. What do you take me for?
    Good question.
    Two things I suppose: a shrewd businessman, and a sensitive lover.
  • edited March 26
    How insightful, I might put that on my next advert. 
    Anyway, is this not a speaker thread? How has it derailed so badly ???
  • sovereign said:

    How insightful, I might put that on my next advert.

    Cool.
    Get a few proofs printed with the adjectives switched. Have a look and see which you prefer.
  • sovereign said:

    Anyway, is this not a speaker thread? How has it derailed so badly ???

    The details of remedying the deterioration of doping can sustain a thread for only so long.
  • sovereign said:
    How insightful, I might put that on my next advert. 
    Anyway, is this not a speaker thread? How has it derailed so badly ???
    In a word (or more): Ben is in it. That is all.
  • edited March 26
    Docfoster said:
    Yes in those days I had to take off the 15" drivers and use the speaker as a toilet.  
    Cabinet damping. Cabinet dumping.
    Dumping (fly tipping), damping (not desrieable in most cases in the house) and doping both naughty offences, fine that man now.

    Still in Meldrew mode!
  • cj66 said:
    Docfoster said:
    Yes in those days I had to take off the 15" drivers and use the speaker as a toilet.  
    Cabinet damping. Cabinet dumping.
    Dumping (fly tipping), damping (not desrieable in most cases in the house) and doping both naughty offences, fine that man now.

    Still in Meldrew mode!
    I told you about listening to Neil Young while doing the chores!
  • edited March 28
    Ok.

    I've chucked a couple of coats of 50/50 PVA/water on the midrange drivers. Partly to reign them in a bit and partly to preserve them (they were looking a bit weathered). Successful on both counts.
    Once I get the new tweeters in (next week?) I'll reassess what's going on and if the mids need another coat...

    Thinking ahead, I'm wondering about a couple of things.
    Firstly the crossover (see pic below)...
    Those of you with know-how, is this worth rebuilding (like for like)? I might be willing to give this a go. But would rather not have to, if little is to be gained (at the risk of my breaking something that I find I can't repair).
    I can see some numbers of the blue and red thingies (capacitors...?).
    I don't know what the papery drum things are.
    Basically I'll need help understanding this. Lots of help.
    Looks like the bass driver comes straight off the terminals (the red and black wires disappearing off to the left).

    (Photo taken before I fitted the new binding posts.)

    image

    Secondly, internal wiring. That red and black stuff. What value in upgrading that?

    Oh, and on the right of the photo you can just make out some acoustic boarding. It forms part of a raised panel that runs across the middle of the speaker. Not seen anything like that before inside a cabinet.

    Basically I'm increasingly happy with these beasts. I have hopes for the new tweeters.

    P.S. I've seen these "Magister Crossovers" advertised elsewhere on the web. They look somewhat different (rebuilt / redesigned replacements...?)...

    image
  • The "papery drum things" are inductors...?
    (I've been doing some readin'. :-) )
  • Aren't inductors part of the leg?? Should you have them in a speaker?
  • Nah. They're those guys on old-fashioned buses. Don't know what they're doing there, either.
  • All drivers have inductors, it's how they pass their tests!

    It looks a nice simple set up so beyond simply refreshing the capacitors I'd leave well alone. If the driver ends of the wiring are push on tabs (spades) you could substitute at least the binding post to xover and bass wires with whatever speaker cable you're using. If soldered I'd be worried of frazzling the fragile connecting wires to the driver.
  • That was an 'L' of a bad pun, too :-)


  • Watch out Ben, here's someone who knows what he's on about :-)
  • cj66 said:
    It looks a nice simple set up so beyond simply refreshing the capacitors I'd leave well alone.
    Thanks CJ. That sounds doable.
    Which caps would you recommend?
    I can see the big blue one has "10uF" on it and "150v", but other stuff too.
    Also, what are the red ones...? I can see the number "20" on it, but I don't what that refers to.
    cj66 said:
    If the driver ends of the wiring are push on tabs (spades) you could substitute at least the binding post to xover and bass wires with whatever speaker cable you're using. If soldered I'd be worried of frazzling the fragile connecting wires to the driver.
    The wires to the drivers are soldered both ends. I soldered in the temporary tweeter, and I also had to disconnect (and then re-solder) the bass units to get at crossovers.
    I connected the new binding posts to the crossover using the left-overs of some cable that Colin kindly gave to me when I was building his kit amp. I soldered this to the binding posts and to the crossover. Luckily, I managed to avoid fragile wire frazzling. (Perhaps thankfully, I hadn't considered that to be a potential problem :-/ ).
    I'd be happy to rewire from crossover to drivers. Though I'd have to buy some cable as I've pretty much run out of the stuff that Colin gave me, and my speaker cable is TQ UB, and I won't be forking out for more of that.
    Any suggestions for good quality wiring for the crossover > driver wiring...?
  • Suzy6toes said:
    Aren't inductors part of the leg?? Should you have them in a speaker?
    I think that some 3rd order crossovers do contain an adductor magnus somewhere in their circuit.
    Thankfully, I think that the Magisters are more simple 1st order ones.
  • uglymusic said:
    That was an 'L' of a bad pun, too :-)


    'L' of a pad pun...?
  • Docfoster said:
    uglymusic said:
    That was an 'L' of a bad pun, too :-)


    'L' of a pad pun...?
    'L' of a pad bun?
  • uglymusic said:
    Docfoster said:
    uglymusic said:
    That was an 'L' of a bad pun, too :-)


    'L' of a pad pun...?
    'L' of a pad bun?
    I'm wondering how long it will take for this sentence to evolve opposable thumbs.
  • Docfoster said:
    uglymusic said:
    Docfoster said:
    uglymusic said:
    That was an 'L' of a bad pun, too :-)


    'L' of a pad pun...?
    'L' of a pad bun?
    I'm wondering how long it will take for this sentence to evolve opposable thumbs.
    It's just about crawling out of the primeval chowder at the moment.
  • uglymusic said:
    Docfoster said:
    uglymusic said:
    Docfoster said:
    uglymusic said:
    That was an 'L' of a bad pun, too :-)


    'L' of a pad pun...?
    'L' of a pad bun?
    I'm wondering how long it will take for this sentence to evolve opposable thumbs.
    It's just about crawling out of the primeval chowder at the moment.
    Only time will tell if the various evolutionary selection pressures "approve" that change of state...
  • edited March 29
    Here's a pic of the other crossover. Annoyingly there's a wire partially covering the uF value of the top red one. Looks like a 5 or a 6 or an 8...? image
  • Docfoster said:
    Here's a pic of the other crossover. Annoyingly there's a wire partially covering the uF value of the top red one. Looks like a 5 or a 6 or an 8...? image
    But what's more worrying is someone has cut off a couple of fingers and left them inside your speaker.
  • Adductors and dactyls. It's like Operation in there!
  • I always had a terror of dactyls.
  • Yeah.
    It was obvious from the moment I opened up the cabinet that those 43 year old fingers were knackered.
    I've got some new ones on order from Maplin.
  • edited March 29
    Righto. The speakers are in bits (again) and the crossover is out; the mysterious red caps have been coaxed into revealing their values...
    So the blue one is 10uF.
    The red ones are 5uF (dated DEC 71 :-D ).

    The blue one has 150V on it.
    When finding replacements, do I assume that the red ones are rated at the same voltage (I can't see anything on the that states this in a way that I can understand)...?

    image
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