Audirvana plus

Alan

h itttp://audirvana.com/

Just going on specs I am pretty excited about this. It now does everything Decibel has (so technically no advantage to Decibel anymore) like 64 bit processing. Note that I'm not seeking to discuss if that is audible, just pointing out the changes.

It features fully dithered digital attenuation now, which is definately a one up on Decibel. If it works as promised then that really is a viable alternative to any pre-amp as it won't drop any resolution (no matter how noticable that is, we hate the thought of dropping our bits...)

Audirvana has always done memory play a little differently to others, in that the song is loaded - and then processed/decoded/whatever(?) before playback starts. Coupled with integer mode (which the Young cannot support, neither does Lion) it is supposed to be something really very good.

There is a trial period of a fortnight, then a license is $50. So eminently reasonable, like Decibel - and potentially an improvement on it.

I played normal Audirvana the other evening after updating to the latest versiom, and I have to say that I am uncertain Decibel has an advantage over it. Also I can't use integer mode, which - according to many - is what makes Audirvana special.

I definately think it's worth a trial - anyone else fancy a go?

Incidently, anyone know if the MDAC is 'core audio compatible' (which I take to mean integer mode compatible)?

Brumjam

Interesting Alan. I'll give it a whirl tonight and report back.

uglymusic

Well spotted, Alan.

Will give it a go. The digital attenuation is interesting, but won't stop me needing a pre/attenuator, though. Unless I find a way of feeding the bitstream from the TV into the Mac.

Alan

I think I posted a thread along such lines a while back and found nothing out there (yet).

Which is partly why the 'new DAC on the block is a contender, if it sounds as good as the M2TecH. I want to find out if it is Core audio compatible now.

Brumjam

Yep this will be an interesting experiment rather than a long term solution for me. Although I sometimes use my laptop as a source, most of the time I use my Sonos.

uglymusic

I think I posted a thread along such lines a while back and found nothing out there (yet).

Which is partly why the 'new DAC on the block is a contender, if it sounds as good as the M2TecH. I want to find out if it is Core audio compatible now.

Yep. You did.

I wonder if there's a TOSLINK to USB box around out there that would allow us to plug the TV output into the Mac?

If there is, then maybe my as-yet unbuilt Remote Lightspeed will be superfluous.

'Core Audio Compatible' isn't the same as 'integer mode compatible'.

uglymusic

There are loads of TOSLINK to USB options out there, it seems.

I'll have to see if they'll allow the Mac to do what we want with the TV bitstream.

Alan

That would be very interesting Dave. I thought the mini toslink on a MAC was also capable of digital input?

uglymusic

I don't think so.

Edit: But I was wrong.

Brumjam

So has anyone tried this yet?  I'm listening to it now and initial impressions are it's very good.  Initially I thought the volume control was going to go from zero to ear splitting with a minor turn, but I've set the volume control to 'low' and have the input gain adjustment on my speakers set as low as possible.

Time for some more listening.

Alan

You know, I am not sure about it. Not on redbook material, though it seems very nice upsampling high-res material.

The bass is different to Decibel, not better by any means. I am unconvinced in several other areas, but I need to get to know it better.

sq225917

Just had  a quick listen, no opinion formed yet. Hopefully the volume control is transparent, so i can go Young direct into power amps.

Brumjam

Did you set the volume control to 'low' Simon? Must admit this was too loud on the first volume setting in my system which is why I had to adjust my speakers' input gain.

sq225917

As far as I'm aware that is only the setting for the level (width) of volume dither, the TPDF function, it has nothing to do with the volume level.

Certainly it doesn't increase or decrease the playback volume.

sq225917

I'm loving the Audivarna+ Young combo, a solid improvement over my pre-amp.

Alan

Thats the way, cut out the pre. I wish audirvana could take & process my digi TV feed, then the Mac would almost be my source selector.

Brumjam

I've spent some more time this evening dithering (sorry couldn't resist) with Audirvana Plus and comparing it against my pre.  There are two areas where I think AP trumps my pre:  bass and detail.  It's apparent when a/b'ing  that my pre is rounding off both ends of the frequency spectrum, and that there's far more weight to the bass with my pre out the loop.  Details that I can hear with the pre in place are much easier to pick up on when I'm running the Young straight into my speakers.

Downsides?  There's nowhere near enough play in the AP volume control (in my system).  -55db is way too loud for my listening room - and thats barely a few mm round the dial.    I also think that the soundstage is better with my pre in place.  

These issues aside, with AP in my system I've established a new benchmark for my DAC/speaker combo.

uglymusic

Well. This Audirvana Plus stuff is really clear to me.

It's better than Decibel on my system by a huge amount. There's more life, more weight, more detail, more realism. 

None of the graininess/grittiness that marred the free one.

At the moment, I can't find a single facet that I prefer Decibel on, which is amazing because that's how I've felt when I've compared Decibel to others. Only I feel AP is even further ahead of D than D is ahead of the others.

I'm going to be buying a copy!

Brumjam

Yeah me too Dave. It's rather special isn't it.

uglymusic

It is.

I've been having an evening of hearing stuff I haven't heard before, even with the system playing quietly.

It seems to me that although we hi-fi enthusiasts are getting steamed up about DACs, the real advancements may well be in playback software that costs just a small fraction of a DAC.

Brumjam

Are you using it with the Lightspeed in tow or attenuating via the software? Even with my pre in the loop I can still hear the differences. Given how good AP is I think the days of me using the Sonos as my source are numbered.

uglymusic

I haven't tried it without the Lightspeed as I still need it for the TV volume - it's TOSLINK into the Young.

So it's off to the Apple Store for a Mac mini?

Alan

I like it best with the forced upsampling - it seems to clean up the bass (which on first listen seemed a little 'rounded' to me), but my 2G RAM isn't enough for it. I can play half a track before I get crackling.

I have used as an alternative to Decibel for a couple of days and am starting to contemplate eating my words. Maybe.

I am actually quite motivated to put the extra RAM in before I get round to buying an SSD as A+ really seems to thrive on the upsampling. My wife doesn't approve of the extra bass it brings. Which is nice.

Alan

I just tried it (still am) without a pre. I always wondered what big, 3-way RR3s would sound like.


:>

uglymusic

I don't like it with upsampling. Seems to sound a bit less natural, is how best I can explain it.

I'm gonna have to try taking the Lightspeed out of the system...

Alan

Well, I have settled into it with no upsampling and have got 'into' it now.

I still have reservations about the overall presentation - something in the mid-bass seems a little overblown sometimes, just not as 'clean' as Decibel. Trouble is, I don't know which is correct?  I'll just have to swap back to decibel in a week or two and try to nail down what it is I am getting at.

I have taken to removing the pre whenever I can foe serious listening - I love it! I am not convinced the improvements I am so sold on are as a result of A+ or the pre-less system, but it is my first taste of a system without it and my rig just loves it! I can't go so far as to say the LDR was holding back the rig, but things are certainly better with the more direct path.

I agree with Si that the first steps aren't really that usable, too loud to fast, but I still am developing a taste for digital attenuation.

uglymusic

Interesting that you feel the mid-bass is overblown. I feel it just has more life and drive than Decibel.

But then I have a slightly unconventional view of hi-fi and its purpose. I'm not looking for accuracy or recreating the performance in my room. What I'm looking for is a system that enables me to engage with the music directly and gives me a complete audio/psychological/visceral experience.

If it does that, then I couldn't give a hoot about frequency response, colouration etc. So maybe it's just not annoying me.

uglymusic

Oh, and I haven't yet taken the Lightspeed out of circuit.

Alan

I think you'll enjoy it when you do. And yes, I think it does have more life & drive than Decibel, though I have yet to go back & check.

Just to clarify a little, the mid bass isn't overblown, nor is it annoying me (though I can see how my clumsy post gave such an impression). I can't quite put my finger on what it is, perhaps that area of mid-bass detail & texture was a little too clean with Decibel, a slight bottleneck in the system for some time. Hearing it released is a bit of a shock. I guess it's just more prominent that I have previously heard, and is perhaps likely more a question of acclimatisation. A+ seems to deliver detail in an impressive way, very ballsy, and yes - visceral. I'll go along with that.

As for a view of what HiFi is for etc, I haven't really a view, as I have relatively little experience to inform me. This can make me quite reactionary and excitable when exposed to something new, and I'm not necessarily right in my first (or second, nor third) impressions.

uglymusic

Sorry I misunderstood.

And no one is given extra points if they make up their mind and stick to it, or change it. Of course (Dave labouring over the obvious :-) ). 

It's perhaps for another Discussion (but it's also a hoary old-timer), but I'm really after the music, not the hi-fi. Which is one of the reasons some people took exception to my reviews back in the day.

Brumjam

I haven't tried it without the Lightspeed as I still need it for the TV volume - it's TOSLINK into the Young.

So it's off to the Apple Store for a Mac mini?

Mac mini is calling me. Whatever I decide to do on the subject of DAC's and Pre's is largely irrelevant, because Audivarna Plus is my source of choice now. Can I control Audirvana on the Mac Mini using an iPad?

Guess this is something I can try with my MBP but I've not a clue where to start. Any ideas chaps?

:-?

uglymusic

You can control the mini easily from your MBP using Screen Sharing. That would be my choice.

Brumjam

Thanks.  I'm downloading VNC viewer which should enable me to control MBP/mini from iPad.

uglymusic

Yup. That's the other option.

Alan

VNC apps seem clunky to me, and never allowed me to scroll through albums on iTunes in order to drag 'n drop into Audirvana. I understand they are rather CPU intensive also, which is (according to some ) an issue (though I never heard it).

Screen sharing looks really good - cab that not be done on an iPad?

Damian is planning some kind of iTunes integration, so the rumour goes. That would mean the conventional Rowmote style apps would be all that's needed.

uglymusic

A bit of Googling brought me to this useful video with an annoying host. I think it should answer your questions, James:

Lee

Just downloaded it myself and will give it a good work out tonight

Lee

Been giving it a play first impressions are really good, might be a keeper

Alan

I copied this over from the 'listening to...' thread, as it started a train of thought;





My goodness me, why haven't I played this for so long?!



It has always been a 'hard work' listen in my view, but - like 'Gold' -
eminently worthy musically, lyrically and also in terms of production
values.


You see, I have the requisite couple of hours for a bit of nerding about, and have been comparing A+ to Decibel again with a track from this album. I still favour A+, and will buy a license for sure.

FYI, did you know the iTunes integration is supposedly on for the end of the year?

Anyhow, I have been playing about with the 'pre' situation again. I say 'Pre' in inverted commas, it isn't really a pre-amplifier at all - more a passive attenuator. I currently favour an EVA II with linear power supply, which won out repeatedly against a very fine NVA P90.

A+ lets me control the volume through the software, and is dithered. I take this to mean it doesn't drop resolution, 'bits', or dynamic range (in the general use of the term). The previous update also put more steps into the volume control, which is useful (although the first step is still too loud).

The comparison is almost embarrassing for poor EVA, decent though she is - no pre is sooo much better than a pre in the system. The detail that jumps out is surprising, the shading in the tones is much clearer to hear, and the imaging is more 3-d. There's a lot more going on, but I really don't know how to put it into words.

Several times this afternoon I have pulled up from whatever I'm doing to just listen to a passage - that I thought I knew - and marvelled at the beauty of it. No small thing that, for someone who vacillates between enthusing (idly) over new gear and being jaded with HiFi in general. The music is always there (and it is the main pursuit), but today I can reach out and touch it. What an album, and I like to think the system is sounding really good today too.

I am looking forward to hearing the lighter note sometime, to see whereabouts EVA sits in relation to other LDR's, but I want now to make my system 'pre-less' more than ever.

One other thing I have realised this afternoon, is that if the MDAC works in my system I am happy to be limited to 24/96, as 16/44 is giving me all I need.

sq225917

I'm currently without standalone dac at the minute so forced to listen via headphones and my Ibasso D10 head/amp/dac via optical. While I couldn't really hear anything to call between decibel and AP via the Young the difference is night and day with the D10. AP goes deeper with more resolution than Decibel. At least into the D10.

uglymusic

Isn't it strange the way components interact in different systems? A+ and Decibel are like chalk and cheese in my system with the Young.

uglymusic

Has anyone compared A+ running on 10.6 (Snow Leopard) with it running on 10.7 (Lion)?

Lee

In case you guys didnt know, A+ has itunes integration, just trying out, works a breeze, all the hirez bit rates change automatically when played from itunes music library

Well worth a try if not already tried

Lee

Lee

Forgot the link to get the download

http://audirvana.com/?page_id=4

Brumjam

Cheers Lee. I didn't realise iTunes integration was available already. What about FLAC files? Will these play without any further hacks?

James

Young_Chris

Well I tried the "no preamp" today with the iTunes intergration mode selected. 

The outcome was pleasing although It is difficult to do true A/B . I will put the pre back in a week or so, if I can bare the stupid jumps in volume with IR remote and not blow up my speakers. Fortunately I had read some of the posts on here so every thing was done from minimum setting . Doesn't seem that the Intergration mode has catered for headless minis. Would have been nice if the volumes of itunes and audirvana were linked like amarra and PM and even BP.  Everything else seems to work pretty seamlessly. 

I also tried iTunes straight into my Young. Sounded pretty good as well. 

I may suggest a custom user maximum volume cutoff setting to the software designer to stop the inevitable happening!! While Im at it I may also suggest a wider range on the volume setting so that you can actually use the remote when headless. Pretty good though for 30 odd quid.

Apart from these niggles It sounded pretty good. It really has made me think about the pre less option becoming truely feasible. 

uglymusic

Cheers Lee. I didn't realise iTunes integration was available already. What about FLAC files? Will these play without any further hacks?

James

In the absence of Lee, FLAC playback has been available for a while by dragging the FLACs over to A+. However, iTunes can't see FLACs, so that means the iTunes integration mode won't be the way to go for FLAC playback.

uglymusic

In case you guys didnt know, A+ has itunes integration, just trying out, works a breeze, all the hirez bit rates change automatically when played from itunes music library

Well worth a try if not already tried

Lee

Thanks Lee. I downloaded the Beta this evening.

In theory, I like it, but it's still a bit flaky - I had to force both iTunes and A+ to quit after they hung.

Anyway, the Beta is on my machine, so I'll give it another go tomorrow.

uglymusic

I may suggest a custom user maximum volume cutoff setting to the software designer to stop the inevitable happening!! While Im at it I may also suggest a wider range on the volume setting so that you can actually use the remote when headless. Pretty good though for 30 odd quid.

This may not be news to all of you, but last night, while having a rummage around in A+'s settings, I found a master volume control.

Set it low, and you may not need a pre at all.

But how long has it been there?

Alan

A few months now. I asked Damien to incorporate one when I was playing at Pre-less, but I probably wasn't the only one. About five days after it was mentioned, he put it in.

It's great to use with an iTouch, as you can set the upper limit which makes the scale much more gradual. Trouble is, from my POV, the update appeared just before my last move, and I haven't played at pre-less since we settled in here. It would be interesting to do, now a LightSpeed resides in my system.

uglymusic

Well, I've taken the dodgy Eva out of circuit again, and have been playing pre-less.

It's certainly better than the Eva, and the Remote app on the iTouch does as it should.

I'm still a little concerned that A+ may crash and/or reset itself and I'll find myself and my speaker cones floating around in Brooklands boating lake.