You've never had it so good! Back in my day....

Alan

I've been listening to internet radio, on my Fartphone, through some second hand AKGs. It sounds great, as do many earbuds, and iPods etc...

I know the halcyon days of lore are sometimes lamented (true high end analogue, reel to reel, big infinite baffle speakers, decent uncompressed FM, etc), but for the average consumer audio quality has never been so good, or so easy to accomplish. Just look at Spotify and the choice (and adequate SQ) it brings.

The lessons learned in the last five decades are not lost, enthusiasts populate forums like this to share experience but are truly in a trainspotter like minority. Its probably for the best that we 'audiophiles' (read: nerdy trainspotters) don't get to inflict our preferences on the masses.

Except when it comes to dynamically compressed recordings, of course.

chrisb

Exactly, the recording as opposed to the delivery method makes far more difference.

Docfoster

Agreed Alan. The sound of my iphone on my £20 senheiser ear buds is very good. Not perfect, but doesn't leave me wanting more from a portable device. I know your point isn't about portable devices per-se, but I remember what my saisho Walkman sounded like through a pair of over the ear foam 'phones in 1987. Hifi it was not.
I also think that cheapish mini systems offer good value compared to similar priced separates these days. If I was spending a few hundred quid on new kit today I wouldn't buy separates.

My god. What's happened to me?!

PAC

I'll buck the trend and say that I respectfully hold a different view of things. People used to care what the music was played on and we had little choice but to listen to audiophile quality recordings.  Not so today.  It's all about convenience, fashion and status.  The reason we had a thriving (not shrinking) British hifi industry, envied the world over, was down to our engineering excellence and design excellence.  A few decades back, ok at least 3 or 4 decades back we had a huge export industry in hifi whereas today we import more Chifi than we export British hifi and diigital sales of MP3 outstrip all else.  The only thing I can see that has changed for the better is that today we have more choice and value, arguably better quality and yes, we have far better music on the go.

Buy a disposable midi system?  Perish the thought.  Use half that cash and buy good used bargains to create a more flexible separates system.  Care about the kit as well as the recording quality folks as without your support, hifi will be dead in a generation.

Docfoster

Agree on SH kit Paul. Absolutely.
When it comes to buying new tho - as is the great unwashed's wont - it's hard to argue with Argos for £300.

Alan

Whether we like it or not, the bass level is way higher than it used to be (the lowest common denominator if you like). Decent SQ is accessible to all for low cost, that is what has come on. This doesn't have to mean anything is disposable though.

I reckon £300 on separates will get anyone going. Any DVD player will spin discs, (or use the computer you already have), plus £30 for a 24/192 capable Fiio D3 DAC, some T-amp off eBay for £50 and blow the rest on speakers. All for less than the average weekly wage.

It's almost utopian!

Those of us who care and enjoy this stuff can continue being nerdy to our hearts content. Others may join us in time, but it's all about the music. And the tools exist to enjoy music in the highest quality for the lowest cost ever in the mass market.

We can (thankfully) even leave Argos out of it.

Brain_Dead

I'll buck the trend and say that I respectfully hold a different view of things. People used to care what the music was played on and we had little choice but to listen to audiophile quality recordings.  Not so today.  It's all about convenience, fashion and status.  The reason we had a thriving (not shrinking) British hifi industry, envied the world over, was down to our engineering excellence and design excellence.  A few decades back, ok at least 3 or 4 decades back we had a huge export industry in hifi whereas today we import more Chifi than we export British hifi and diigital sales of MP3 outstrip all else.  The only thing I can see that has changed for the better is that today we have more choice and value, arguably better quality and yes, we have far better music on the go.

Buy a disposable midi system?  Perish the thought.  Use half that cash and buy good used bargains to create a more flexible separates system.  Care about the kit as well as the recording quality folks as without your support, hifi will be dead in a generation.

Hi Paul the statement:-

(China) "The only thing I can see that has changed for the better is that today we have more choice and value, arguably better quality and yes, we have far better music on the go."

I do not agree, the reason is after trying many Semiconductors out some made in China with the so called same spec I had more much more failures from the China parts, on investigation (cut them up) the silicon was often (90%) a quarter the size it should have been if they followed the original spec.

On the connector front we buy from all over the world but all our parts are RHoS compliance .We found only from China, after costly chemical testing they all failed with to much Cadmium or Mercury and poor plating of Gold only designed for Bling and cheap bracelets.

Also on HV tests again all failed out test, ALL no exception and none had CE or RHoS, nasty.

Having sent all our design skills and innovation abroad to make more profit the greedy companies have killed or Hi-Fi and many others companies off the small one could not move or compete and the large ones just moved. 

Also note Japan did the same as we did and the USA let faces it VTL, Krell etc are made there, Naim are still made here so far, but now they are embroiled with the French who can tell.

A bid stupid mistake for many good British companies to move production there just to make a profit bigger.

Moan for the day over folks. (maybe)

PAC

I agree with you Col regarding Chinese kit, you mis-understood my point, I didn;t mean to imply that greater choice and quality comes from China, quite the reverse!  I looked at many cable suppliers for my business and without fail, the cables which measured inconsistently and had poorest build quality were from China.  The cables that I use are from Japan, the UK and the USA and no-where else. Connectors are from Japan or Australia, nothing Chifi in my line up!

I do believe that we have MUCH more choice these days.  Look at turntables as an example.  there are more UK BUILT turntables available today than 10 years ago, and they represent great value on the whole.  There are many cottage industry amp manufacturers around too as well as those who like to shun the limelight on marketing (their products sell themselves so they do not need or want the middlemen) and far from damaging their businesses, they continue to flourish!

Ditto loudspeakers.  Some companies went by the wayside such as Castle (a great shame) but even they have recently been ressurected, and companies like AE, Harbeth, and Tannoy are doing really well and exporting world-wide with a good chunk of business dealings in the Far East.

All that supports this status quo in the UK is perhaps two generations of enthusiast over here.  In Japan for example, it is very much an aspirational target to have a high end separates system and they have very conservative and high quality traditional targets. Tannoy are a big hit there as are Harbeth for example.

The USA and Europe like the Far East are bombarded with new "tools" every year as technology moves on, but most of it is aimed at convenience music, so IMHO it boils down to support your UK industry or you'll be left with compressed pap and muzak!  I'm with Alan.  £300 buys a great T-amp, a set of stand mounters and a dvd player and that lot if carefully picked will blow away any Argos special

Alan

As two equipment designers, its your job to source decent components (feel free to have a little moan while you're at it!), but as a consumer, I have more choices at a lower pricepoint than ever before.

When I want to change parts on the big rig, then I expect the likes of Tellurium Q, RFC and any other quality brand to sort the quality issues before I get there.

Interestingly, John Westlake made similar points to both of you about Chinese components on PFM. When he designed the excellent MDAC (as a consultant for IAG/Audiolab) he had a real job finding adequate (ie very good) components. The only way he could guarantee what he got was to visit the factories himself and subsequently monitor quality very closely. Now he has left it seems IAG have already let component quality slip by using cheaper bits, leading to more failures.

Now, as a consumer, that puts me off a bit...

Docfoster

As long as its a fair and open trade off between cost and quality, that's ok from a consumer point of view - you pays your money...
It's a problem if you get manufacturers overpricing products with cheap components tho'.

PAC

Happens in every area of life Ben.  Look at car parts.  Many of the crucial sensors and wiring in your motor originate in China.  £500 for a Merc MAF unit anyone?  Manufacturing cost = £5

Hifi is not different.  You're paying for the name and the design in many cases.  Look at some well known British brands (no names) that are now manufactured in China.  Not everyone is aware yet that their branded speakers from a company with roots back to the 1950's are actually built on a Chinese assembly line.  Speaking with a QC engineer fresh from a trip back from China, full time supervision is needed in every area of production from sourcing raw materials, through logistics (cost control), manufacture and assembly.  

For those companies not employing UK staff full time overseeing the work, failure rates within the 1st 50 hours use can be as high as 10% and that's in the final (consumer) tested products!  Things are changing though as Chinese wages have grown five fold in as many years and some companies are now having to relocate back to the UK as the economies are not what the once were plus the workforce and work ethos is completely different.  We have more highly skilled and highly motivated workers in the UK who would jump at the chance to get work and I do think the future's brighter in this industry medium term than some might expect.   

Brain_Dead

I do like the term Chi-fi.

Yes many good brand names are coming back home, a company I worked for got all there UK designed products from China and had about 50% failure, soon afterward the assembly company in China went bust.

The design companies chief engineer now has is own company and making in the UK tube amps, well done Larry.

I still have to find rare earth metals for IPI Ltd in China but it will be assembled and built here in Somerset, is that still in the UK? 

:-))

Oh well back to moving office for me.

Docfoster

Happens in every area of life Ben.  Look at car parts.  Many of the crucial sensors and wiring in your motor originate in China.  £500 for a Merc MAF unit anyone?  Manufacturing cost = £5

Hifi is not different.  You're paying for the name and the design in many cases.  Look at some well known British brands (no names) that are now manufactured in China.  Not everyone is aware yet that their branded speakers from a company with roots back to the 1950's are actually built on a Chinese assembly line.  Speaking with a QC engineer fresh from a trip back from China, full time supervision is needed in every area of production from sourcing raw materials, through logistics (cost control), manufacture and assembly.  

For those companies not employing UK staff full time overseeing the work, failure rates within the 1st 50 hours use can be as high as 10% and that's in the final (consumer) tested products!  Things are changing though as Chinese wages have grown five fold in as many years and some companies are now having to relocate back to the UK as the economies are not what the once were plus the workforce and work ethos is completely different.  We have more highly skilled and highly motivated workers in the UK who would jump at the chance to get work and I do think the future's brighter in this industry medium term than some might expect.  

It's good to read that Paul.
Also there are honest manufacturers out there with pricing that is reasonable, honest and ethical. Your good self for one. :-)

PAC

Thanks for the vote of confidence Ben.  Must admit whilst the future looks better for the UK industry as a whole, small operators like myself are struggling big time at the moment!

uglymusic

I'm sorry to hear things are tough. But that's the story for start-ups at the best of times.

Brain_Dead

Start up were a pain in 5 yrs working in Scotland I worked for 7 off them, all died, NO it was not my fault. It was typical bad British Management. All the director after getting large grant went a bought large cars.