dac straight to power amp - volume control through players?

mscofieldmscofield
edited February 2012 in Digital
Hello all,

I have a question about my new set that I'm planning to build around my new M2Tech Young dac. I'd like to use the following three sources: Mac, Squeezebox and Dune. All of these could be connected to the dac. 

Is it possible to connect the dac straight to a power amp and control the volume with each of the players (mac, squeezebox, dune) themself?

Thanks in advance,

Michael

Comments

  • DocfosterDocfoster
    You are in the right place to ask that question!
    I will step aside and let those with the apple+young answers come to the fore...
  • mscofieldmscofield
    Thanks Docfoster! I'm currently looking into Hypex. It's kind of a DIY power amp from a dutch company.
    If I need a (passive) volume solution, I could perhaps include this into the amp.
    I have to see what that will cost though.. but maybe worth the money!
  • BrumjamBrumjam
    What sort of Squeezebox do you have Michael? I know that the volume can be controlled on the Touch. There is a range of playback software available for the Mac, some of which offer a volume control, e.g. Audirvana Plus, Pure Music, Amarra. There are free trial versions available for all these players.

    Are you going to keep three different sources or are you just evaluating them? You could try putting an attenuator in between the DAC outputs and your power amp. That way you could switch off the volume control in your playback software/run it at 100%, and have a single volume control. I know that Genelec make an attenuator whereby the DAC out goes in on one side and you then run another set of cables out to your power amp. That way you have one volume control for all three sources.

    Or you could get a preamp. Or,or.....so many choices :D
  • mscofieldmscofield
    edited January 2012
    Brumjam,

    I currently already own the Mac (with Pure Music) and the Dune, but not yet the Squeezebox. This will indeed be the Squeezebox Touch.

    As said in above post, I'm planning to build a Hypex 'diy' power amp, where a volume attenuator could be included in the case. I have no idea how much such an attenuator should cost (like 5, 50 or 500 euro's?), but this would be the ideal scenario of course!

    For Hypex, see: http://www.hypex.nl/

    btw, the Young dac doesn't set any volume control to fixed, right? So that there is no possibility to control the volume within the source..
  • BrumjamBrumjam
    That's right Michael. The Young DAC has no volume control. I'll see if I can find a link the the Genelec attenuator....will give you an idea anyway.

    When you say that a volume attenuator can be included in the case, do you mean a Hypex attenuator that's wired directly to the power amp section? I've no knowledge of DIY hifi but have the utmost respect for those that can build their own kit - there are a few wise people on this forum who might be able to help out re attenuation.


    Cheers,

    James
  • mscofieldmscofield
    Well, to be honest I have no experience with hifi diy in specific. But I've seen some Hypex amps from others.. and there should be plenty of room for an attenuator.
  • AlanAlan
    edited January 2012
    I have heard of Hypex, and read good things about them. There is a very well regarded DIY DAC makes (mostly) who sold a beautiful Hypex based amp last year - I nearly took a punt on it.

    There is no volume control on the Young, but Pure Music, Amarra and Audirvana+ can all do this on MAC.

    Squeezebox touch can too, I think, but I don't know about Dune.

    A simple passive attenuator might be useful too Michael, just in case one of your sources re-sets or something and you end up with a full volume blast though your speakers...a passive pre is compatible with most amps and is often the most transparent solution. Although I like direct connection to the power amp I still use one.

    There are lots of different types of passive pre: Volume pots or stepped attenuators, TVC, of LDR. They are all passive in that they do not amplify, they only attenuate the volume. My current LDR pre has only a single input, which the Young DAC feeds. Uglymusic is making a similar one to me, but with a remote control. He is very, very lazy.

    I know it is another box in your system but I would think about it if I were you, otherwise I think I might have considered a different DAC with a volume control, like the Audiolab MDAC or Mytek 192.
  • uglymusicuglymusic
    Wow! There's a lot in this thread. 

    Let's see if I can help with anything...
  • uglymusicuglymusic
    Thanks Docfoster! I'm currently looking into Hypex. It's kind of a DIY power amp from a dutch company.
    If I need a (passive) volume solution, I could perhaps include this into the amp.
    I have to see what that will cost though.. but maybe worth the money!
    I believe @Jim has built two pairs of Hypex amps, so he's the man to answer questions about them.

    He uses one pair and a valve amp to drive a pair of big Open Baffle speakers. There's an active crossover before the amps and a passive pre before that.
  • uglymusicuglymusic
    A simple passive attenuator might be useful too Michael, just in case one of your sources re-sets or something and you end up with a full volume blast though your speakers...a passive pre is compatible with most amps and is often the most transparent solution. Although I like direct connection to the power amp I still use one.

    There are lots of different types of passive pre: Volume pots or stepped attenuators, TVC, of LDR. They are all passive in that they do not amplify, they only attenuate the volume. My current LDR pre has only a single input, which the Young DAC feeds. Uglymusic is making a similar one to me, but with a remote control. He is very, very lazy.
    I'm running pre-less at the moment because my Eva (LDR) is shot and I don't have room for my conventional passive. What I have found is that Audirvana+ tends to reset itself to its lowest volume setting. I'm being very careful, but so far nothing untoward has even tried to happen.

    Once @Jim and I have some time, we'll get back on the Remote Lightspeed. I want to compare it with the no-pre option. I'd rather have it in circuit, but if A+ continues to behave itself and pre-less is appreciably better, then I'll continue the way I am.
  • anubisgrauanubisgrau
    i would be extremely careful if depending purely on software for attenuation - if nothing, than for safety of the speakers, just imagine software or PC crashing (or something like that) and getting full non-attenuated voltage from your DAC into the power amps. thanks, no thanks.

    second and equally important - young massively benefits from a good preamp. tonally, as it's bit on a brighter, more lively side of spectrum i would recommend a compensation of healthy harmonics from as good tube preamp as you can afford. 

    when i had young, i listened to it through a very good version of DIY classic - euridice, 6N6P with output transformers - much much more music and life than going commando and attenuating from MBP or touch. that really sounds so agricultural, if i may say so. dry and pretty lifeless.


  • mscofieldmscofield
    Wow thanks for all the input so far, nice place over here. ;-)
    The longer I think about it, the more I know that I MUST have a volume controller..
    Because I'm not the only one who'll use the set.
    Of course, I prefer to have the controller inside the Hypex, but a external wouldn't be the biggest problem.

    So I'll dive more into the Hypex amps, send Jim a message and give some updates when possible!
  • uglymusicuglymusic
    Thanks for your thoughts @anubisgrau

    The software has crashed on many occasions (see my remarks in the Audirvana+ thread) and silence has been the outcome. 

    I'm not a tube man, so although @BrumJam is adding a tube pre, I can't see I will. I don't believe in adding stuff in the analogue domain to make up for perceived deficiencies elsewhere. The more stuff in the signal path, the more chance of messing up the signal. 

    I also don't recognise your description of 'dry and pretty lifeless' as applying to what I'm listening to at the moment. But horses for courses, and each to his own. 
  • AlanAlan
    Hi Michael,

    It might be worth looking at the best stepped attenuator you can afford, and building it into the Hypex. Then you've less boxes, less cables, and a happy family!
    >:D<
  • JimJim
    Thanks Docfoster! I'm currently looking into Hypex. It's kind of a DIY power amp from a dutch company.
    If I need a (passive) volume solution, I could perhaps include this into the amp.
    I have to see what that will cost though.. but maybe worth the money!
    I believe @Jim has built two pairs of Hypex amps, so he's the man to answer questions about them.

    He uses one pair and a valve amp to drive a pair of big Open Baffle speakers. There's an active crossover before the amps and a passive pre before that.
    Dave speaks the truth.  I have 4 of these:

    http://www.hypex.nl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=63&Itemid=68

    They are happy being driven from a passive pre.  I have used them with stereo pots and single mono pots in and out of the same cases they are in.  I have also used active preamps with no problems.  I have also used them straight from a DAC and controlled volume from a PC - a bit scary but works fine.

    I currently have one pair being driven in balanced mode from a Behringer active crossover and the other pair running from a stepped attenuator.  This is the best arrangement so far.  Although an all to brief dalliance with a Lightspeed LDR a while back was very good.

    I would strongly suggest using the biggest power supply you can afford and/or accommodate.  Each of mine has a 500va toroid and at least 12,000uF per rail.  I know what Hypex recommend and I also know what many on the forums suggest.  All I can say is I've tried them with smaller supplies and prefer the larger by a good enough margin to justify the extra cost. 
  • mscofieldmscofield
    Thanks for the comment Jim!

    I'm looking into the new NCore from Hypex and it looks very promising.
    However, I don't know whether or not I'll be assembling the attenuator inside this amp or in an external one (Lightspeed attenuator).
    Probably that last one though. Where can I order? ;)
  • AlanAlan
    Usually direct from George, who makes them. He is in Australia, but ships everywhere.

    alternatively, why not build one? They are apparently very simple, and the parts are available in kit form. That is what Jim is helping Uglymusic (Dave) to do, and his will have remote control!
  • uglymusicuglymusic
    The build should be simple. The lack of detailed instructions makes it complicated.
  • AlanAlan
    Have you tried DIYAudio forum? George posts there, and Urah Dailey also. I think the plans are freely available there. Somewhere...
  • uglymusicuglymusic
    We spent best part of a day going through all the bits of stuff scattered over the Web, and @Jim had to talk to Paul Hynes in order to answer his questions.

    Somewhere in my list of things to do for Chews is one saying 'write up a how-to on the Remote Lightspeed'. It does, of course, depend on Jim and I finding the time to build the thing in the first place!
  • mscofieldmscofield
    edited January 2012
    Haven't looked much into the attenuators that much really. Would be fun to make one myself though.
    I think that an external one would be the best solution, keeping the Hypex amplifier a seperate component.

    I'll look into the diyaudio forum for the attenuator. That forum helped me great, so far!

    Sorry for the 180 degree turn, but...
    If I'd swap my M2Tech Young and get a dac with volume control (say audiolab mdac), It would be absolutly fine to use that volume control and skip the external attenuator. Right? Thinking about this, because the less components there are.. the more easier it will be to use it for the rest of the household.

    Not sure if I could sell/swap my Young though, lovin' it so far! :(
    So I prefer the Source -> Young -> Attenuator -> Hypex amp :)
  • JimJim
    Thanks for the comment Jim!

    I'm looking into the new NCore from Hypex and it looks very promising.
    However, I don't know whether or not I'll be assembling the attenuator inside this amp or in an external one (Lightspeed attenuator).
    Probably that last one though. Where can I order? ;)
    You're welcome.  The NCore modules do look very interesting.  But 400w I do not need!

    I have been thinking about swapping mine over to the HG variants - but not having heard them I wonder if the difference is worth the cost and effort.

    If you're after less components then stick a good quality pot or attenuator in the case with the UCDs and you're done.

  • uglymusicuglymusic
    MacBook -> Young -> Monoblocks still hasn't blown anything up, though :-)
  • anubisgrauanubisgrau
    edited January 2012
     
    Sorry for the 180 degree turn, but...
    If I'd swap my M2Tech Young and get a dac with volume control (say audiolab mdac), It would be absolutly fine to use that volume control and skip the external attenuator. Right? Thinking about this, because the less components there are.. the more easier it will be to use it for the rest of the household.
    Not sure if I could sell/swap my Young though, lovin' it so far! :(
    So I prefer the Source -> Young -> Attenuator -> Hypex amp :)
    i don't think young is the best dac i've heard (on contrary far from that) but i'm not entirely convinced yet that it's worth replacing it with mdac. both are not 100% neutral and if young sits firmly in your system, you may have a problem with mdac (and vice versa). it's absolutely necessary to hear both in the same system, don't read too much forums these days. young was massively hyped earlier, now it's mdac - the truth is there are better dacs out there for sure.
  • mscofieldmscofield
    edited January 2012
    I have to agree with you anubisgaru. The thing is, I've auditioned several dacs on my Denon 3310 AVR and this one came out best. But now I'd like to replace the AVR with an Hypex power amp... just need to got some volume control somewhere.

    Will surely audition several dacs, when considering a new one.
    But one with the following things would be ideal:
    - minimum 1xusb, 1xcoax, 1xopt
    - volume control
    - balanced out

    didn't knew i needed the last two before I've set my mind on those Hypex amps ;)
  • anubisgrauanubisgrau
    i found this moment in development of DACs quite confusing. there's plenty of features on some of them one actually doesn't need or at least can live without. why 32/784? why so many filters? IMHO these are just hooks for hungry audience which doesn't have a clear idea what they actually need. at the end, they buy products not according how they sound but what features they have.  
    i can see the manufacturers learned the trick from car sellers.
    IMHO a volume control is not enough. it should be a volume control with the similar quality as in a good preamp to make sense to drop a preamp from this chain....
  • mscofieldmscofield
    edited January 2012
    Wow, you're so right...

    All I know for sure are which inputs and output I need. And that I need a descent volume control somewhere.. just anywhere in my setup. Oh and it should sound good. Not the specs, but the music that it plays! ;)

    Alan/uglymusic: You got the Lightspeed Attenuator from George, right?
    I'm still not sure if using only the Lightspeed, skipping an other preamp, would make the music lifeless..
  • mscofieldmscofield
    Have been searching, reading and listening a lot since.
    Waiting for some last parts for the Hypex amp. Very excited!
    I'm planning to stick with the Mac->Young->Hypex setup for a while and hope I can keep the sound in control..
    If this will be a problem, I'll probably go for either a LDR of look for a young alternative with pre functions.

    Planning on a mdac vs young somewere in the next few days/weeks.

    Thanks for the support, highly appreciated :)
  • uglymusicuglymusic
    The key thing in such a set-up - It's basically the same as mine - is the master volume control which is in, in my case, Audirvana +. I have this set around 10-15% to give me late-night listening to loud, if not ear-splitting. Depends on the recording how loud things go without touching the master volume.

    Good luck!
  • mscofieldmscofield
    Thanks for that! Will try once the power amp is ready.
    Currently trying to sell some of my surround stuff: Denon 3310, XTZ 99.26 center, Monitor Audio RXFX's.
    Playing with a t-amp at the moment.. not bad at all, surprisingly!
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