Computer-based network player into DAC ...?

RosewindRosewind
edited March 2011 in Digital
Originally I had not intended to use a computer anywhere near my stereo kit but I have noticed that a lot of you actually use a computer as a network player into the M2Tech Young DAC, so perhaps I ought to consider this as a cost-effective alternative to other network players. I will want the solution to be capable of streaming/playing back 24/192 like the integrated network players offered by LINN, PS Audio and (partly) Naim etc.

So far I have gone down the Squeezebox route. Curently I  have a Synology 209+ Server ---> Netgear Wireless Router ---- > SB Touch / Aune DAC + SB 3 solution.

I have played a bit with a home-made Linux-based Vortexbox ripper/server
but not in a quiet box. I wonder if such a thing would work well enough
as a quiet (fanless?) transport into a DAC?

Another thing is to use PC-based quiet box. I have a (noisy) Shuttle computer with an EMU 1212m soundcard that I use for playback in my study.

Thirdly, I may consider going down the Mac route after all if I can find a very quiet solution.

What would work? What would I need?

1 x PC / Mac

Server software + Hi Res Music Player
Cables + M2Tech EVO or what?
Touch screen remote?

I don't want a PC versus Mac vs Linux war here. Simply a description of how to do it to in a simple, flexible way that ensures very good SQ with PC / Mac. I would like the PC / Mac to be on par with very good transports.

Best wishes,
Peter




Comments

  • AlanAlan
    edited March 2011
    There are quiet PCs, and there are quiet MACs. One of the reasons the MAC mini is popular is it's tiny form factor and the silent operation - I don't think it has a fan (I've certainly never heard it) - it uses it's aluminium body as a heat sink. Put in a solid state hard drive & there are no moving parts in there. I have a NAS drive for storing my music files on, linked by an ethernet cable.

    High-Rez capable player: Foobar for windows (free) or JR River media centre for a nicely integrated library. Audirvana (free) for MAC or Decibel ($38) - all are capable of any bit rates & sample rates you want.

    Cables - I tried some 'boutique' USB cables incl Wireworld Starlight, and the Young seemed completely indifferent. I stuck with the stock USB cable, as have at least three others here.

    I control my MAC with a glass topped bluetooth Apple mouse, my LCD TV is my monitor. I can also use the little infra-red remote that Apple sell or about £6. Almost any modern tablet style phone (or indeed tablet) would link to my MAC via bluetooth & I could control the whole system 'headless' - without a monitor - if I wanted to.
  • uglymusicuglymusic
    edited March 2011
    I use:
    • MacBook as the server, controlled by my MacBook Air using OS X's screen sharing. The MacBook had been replaced by the Air for my business and was destined for eBay. Instead, I swapped out the G4 Mac mini from the hi-fi, as the MacBook can run the latest OS X. The MacBook should be receiving an SSD this weekend as I'm on a mission to trick the thing out :-)
    • I use Decibel for playback and iTunes for library management
    • Storage is a Drobo, connected via FireWire to my office iMac, and streaming via 802.11n wi-fi. This week, I'm installing a 'real' NAS as well, so I'll have proper onsite backup between two RAID devices
    • The Macbook is connected via the supplied USB cable to the Young

    This kind of set-up would be very expensive to buy from scratch - two laptops and two RAID boxes, but that's what I've evolved into over two or more years.

    An Intel-based Mac, a NAS and a wireless router is what you need to start with, though. You have the NAS and the wireless router, so just slotting in a computer will get you rolling.

    I like Macs, so I've gone down that route. I'm equally at home with Windows - I have machines running XP, Vista and 7 around here - but IMO, Windows is harder work as a basis for an audio server - more choices, more to set up. Linux is less well appointed with decent playback software.

    It sounds as if you're happy with technology, so I can't see an argument for using a network player as they computer - whatever you choose - will give you more flexibility.

    HTH
  • uglymusicuglymusic
    There are quiet PCs, and there are quiet MACs. One of the reasons the MAC mini is popular is it's tiny form factor and the silent operation - I don't think it has a fan (I've certainly never heard it) - it uses it's aluminium body as a heat sink. Put in a solid state hard drive & there are no moving parts in there. I have a NAS drive for storing my music files on, linked by an ethernet cable.

    High-Rez capable player: Foobar for windows (free) or JR River media centre for a nicely integrated library. Audirvana (free) for MAC or Decibel ($38) - all are capable of any bit rates & sample rates you want.

    Cables - I tried some 'boutique' USB cables incl Wireworld Starlight, and the Young seemed completely indifferent. I stuck with the stock USB cable, as have at least three others here.

    I control my MAC with a glass topped bluetooth Apple mouse, my LCD TV is my monitor. I can also use the little infra-red remote that Apple sell or about £6. Almost any modern tablet style phone (or indeed tablet) would link to my MAC via bluetooth & I could control the whole system 'headless' - without a monitor - if I wanted to.
    Dave with his pickiness head on says the mini does have a fan, but it's trudat you have to have a very hot room to make it spin enough to sound.
  • figlet108figlet108
    I don't think it has a fan (I've certainly never heard it) 

    Alan, agree with your comments, but just wanted to clarify that all MacMinis have a fan (although I appreciate they are very quiet and the fan will probably rarely come on with the light load playing music will have)


    As far as I know the only way to have a guaranteed silent computer with no moving parts is to go the PC/Linux route, or heavily customise a Mac to remove the cooling fan. (and use SSDs in whatever solution you choose)

    Jason

  • uglymusicuglymusic
    edited March 2011
    You could use a current MacBook Air. It is totally solid state and has a tiny fan, according to some of the pix I've seen, but I've never heard it at work on mine, unlike one my mini, which could be provoked into making a sound.

    But how quietly do you play your music?
  • figlet108figlet108
    edited March 2011
    ... but IMO, Windows is harder work as a basis for an audio server - more choices, more to set up
    Dave, we'll have to have a gentleman's disagreement on that one :-)


    With an audiophile software player like J River Media Centre set to WASAPI output you are done.
    I haven't kept up with audiophile players on Macs but I imagine there are cost effective solutions that auto-select the sample rate these days?
    If so, I would say they are as easy as each other.


    But as Peter says, let's not get into that rat-hole of a debate :D
    Jason
  • uglymusicuglymusic
    Best shut down an argument you can't win, hadn't you?  :D  :D :D

    I think everything but iTunes auto-selects these days.

    But I have something strange on my office system. I can play different sampling rate files without having to do anything manually. Perhaps it's because the DAC doesn't play anything higher than 48, and the stepping down somehow keeps iTunes happy. Seems unlikely. More likely that version 10 of iTunes now auto-selects. 

    Anyone know what's actually happening?
  • RosewindRosewind
    edited March 2011
    PC-route: For playback on my Windows-based Shuttle in my study, I use J River Media Center as I think it sounds fantastic. In my study I play music rather loudly - even when I correct students' essays. The problem is that in the livingroom I don't want anything to go louder than the hum from my Naim kit ...



    Jason. How do you connect the PC with DAC?



    Mac route: Great link to a dissembled Mac Mini - even I could follow that guide.
    Mac Mini with an SSD drive as I don't intend to store any music on it would be alright? It would definitely make it a quieter machine.
    Then simply USB out? No expensive cable or M2Tech box? It sounds too simple to be true.
    Best wishes,
    Peter
  • uglymusicuglymusic
    Mac mini with SSD is a lot of people's weapon of choice. Put your music on the NAS.

    Alan and I tried the standard Young USB cable against some moderately-priced (£100 or less) USB cables. Independently, we couldn't tell the difference. But that's exactly what async USB should give you.
  • AlanAlan
    edited March 2011
    There's a fan eh? Right - that's it in the bin!

    I didn't know that - is now a good time to mention again I only bought the MAC 6 months ago & plead ignorance?

    I will be getting SSD'd soon as well as I hear it is the way forward. I can't let Dave leave me in the dust either!
  • AlanAlan
    edited March 2011
    Peter - it really is like that! Ugly has the cable already from another setup, and I trialled cables ready to buy one. There really was no point! Now a regulated power supply is worth it...

    The young has HiFace/Evo built in already.
  • RosewindRosewind
    edited March 2011
    Thanks Alan and all!

    An alternative to the Mac Mini approach: I found this interesting PC-based pc-music player on computeraudiophile called the Auraliti PK100 File Player. It will come in an USB-version also. It surely looks promising. I will check it out asap. The thread was a long and interesting read with much tech talk about (asyncronous) USB and whether this device would need (Mac/Win/Linux) drivers with various USB DACs. The Yong was also mentioned along the thread by Eloise (Audio_elf):

    "On the other hand DACs such as Wyred4Sound and M2Tech, like the
    FireWire devices, won't work (via direct USB) unless their manufacturers
    are prepared to either develop Linux drivers or supply details to Linux
    coders."

    Does this mean that the M2Tech Young won't work with the Auralite PK100 at all? Or wil it work with a later USB version of the Auralite File Player?

    Best wishes,
    Peter
  • figlet108figlet108
    edited March 2011
    Peter, don't but the PK100 - it's worthless for your needs:


    "Here are some important considerations for potential PK100 buyers
    No physical CD/DVD drive
    No ability to rip CDs
    No Network Attached Storage (NAS) support yet
    No usable onboard hard drive
    No physical buttons or user interface on the actual player chassis
    No USB or FireWire DAC support
    No Squeezebox / SqueezeCenter
    No iTunes music sharing capability
    No UPnP support
    Some readers will look at this list and consider the PK100 worthless."


    You would have to connect the Young with spdif which means you'll lose the option of playing all those high sample rate files you'll start owning
  • figlet108figlet108
    edited March 2011
    PC-route: For playback on my Windows-based Shuttle in my study, I use J River Media Center as I think it sounds fantastic. In my study I play music rather loudly - even when I correct students' essays. The problem is that in the livingroom I don't want anything to go louder than the hum from my Naim kit ...



    Jason. How do you connect the PC with DAC?




    You would connect the PC to the DAC with either USB, optical or digital coax depending on what outputs your PC had and the inputs the DAC had. In the case of the Young you definitely want to go USB, and obviously all PCs have USB connectors.

    Jason
  • RosewindRosewind
    Thanks Jason.

    I will have to see how much a simple and quiet music pc will set me back.

    Re. the PK100: I will definitely wait for the USB version of the File Player to see how it fares in real life testing.

    Things develop fast within Hi Res Music, Hi Res music streaming and Hi Res Music Playback + DACs. I meet new Network Players and (USB) DACs in almost every search I do on the internet. I want a digital music player solution that exceeds cd replay and that is on par or exceeds good vinyl replay. It must be capable of 192/24 as well.

    Next week I will see if I can have a listen to the M2Tech Young Dac and the Rega DAC when I am in Copenhagen. There I am also going to listen to hi res played on the beautiful (and ever-so-expensive) Devialet D-Premier all-in-one solution to my audiophile needs ...

    Best wishes,
    Peter




  • figlet108figlet108
    Peter, what are your timescales and budget for a PC transport?

    I ask because I'm currently working on an NVA PC transport at the other end of the scale to the TFS - basically a black-box competitor to the Mac mini that will be small, silent and simple and have the option of a decent linear PSU.

    I haven't formally priced it up yet, but I hope to get it between £600 and £700 including a Windows 7 Pro license and a JRMC license.

    Is that of any interest?

    Jason
  • AlanAlan
    Yes it is. Oh - you weren't talking to me....

    Excellent sig, BTW!
    :-))
  • MervynMervyn
    Jason

    Chuckled at the signature tweak - whatever could you mean !!!
  • figlet108figlet108
    Jason

    Chuckled at the signature tweak - whatever could you mean !!!
    Well, it's late and I'm feeling silly :)
  • AlanAlan
    edited March 2011
    >Thread pruned & tidied to remove rampant silliness that could possibly have been less than helpful to Peter!<
  • RosewindRosewind
    edited March 2011
    I did get to read it all lads! Quite ok.

    Jason
    As for a pc transport, I am in a state of limbo while trying to navigate between all the various offerings. I am very tempted to test the PS Audio PerfectWave DAC + Bridge which is far more than your pc transport + Young DAC will cost me. Another option is the Naim Dac for which I will need a decent transport. There is also an interesting transport/DAC option form the DIY-based Hifiakademie that mainly sells stuff in Germnay. The whole problem is to listen to it all and then decide. I also need to get the money together in particular if I climb (too) far up the ladder.

    Obviously I would be interested in your PC-transport, but I can't commit at this point in time. As for the price point, it will depend on how good it is. Keep me posted on it.

    Thanks.

    Best wishes,
    Peter
    =D>
  • figlet108figlet108

    Obviously I would be interested in your PC-transport, but I can't commit at this point in time. As for the price point, it will depend on how good it is. Keep me posted on it.


    Peter, of course. 
    And either way I'd be very interested in your views and assessment of any NVA Transport I may produce, especially relative to the other offerings you mention.
    Any feedback you have for your ideal PC transport now while I'm at the development stage or later as an assessment to make future improvements is very much appreciated.

    And I hope you enjoy the journey of discovery :)

    Jason
  • MervynMervyn

    Jason

    I think a NVA transport is a very good idea. For me it would basically be the TFS without the Xonar and hence have all the same connectivity etc.

    A big selling point for me would be option to add a good quality linear power supply. This provides imho a very significant uplift/upgrade in performance and something that makes it potentially much better than a Mac ( especially with a NVA power supply !).

    Mervyn

  • RosewindRosewind
    Obviously, there must be a few things I need to be filled in on: the TLS and (the stripped down version?) the NVA.I need a bit more info, so Jason, a few links/pointers would be great. Thanks.

    Best wishes,
    Peter
  • AlanAlan
    You might need to wait until he builds it! The TFS only came out last week.
  • RosewindRosewind
    edited March 2011

    Thanks Alan. I thought that the TLS was an old project of Jason's and that the NVA was a new project. 

    These are interesting times with all these options opening up in the fields of streamed music playback and DAC.

    I have almost all the patience in the world, but I am very tempted to buy the Young DAC now and take it from there. I just want to make sure that the Young is as good as reported. Then I wil use my SB Touch for low hi res playback ;), and see what I will get as a transport for true hi res (above 24/96).

    Clearly I will need to demo the Young DAC soon.

    Best wishes,

    Peter

  • figlet108figlet108
    edited March 2011

    Thanks Alan. I thought that the TLS was an old project of Jason's and that the NVA was a new project. 

    Hi Peter,

    sorry I didn't get a chance to reply sooner.

    Just to clarify, 
    NVA is the name of the company
    TFS is a high-end all in one HiFi PC that NVA has just released - click here for details
    NVA Transport is an upcoming product that I am working on which will be a small, silent and simple PC Transport that will not include a DAC. It will also be much cheaper than the TFS. It is this (not-yet-released) product I'm suggesting you might want to try with the Young or any DAC of choice once it's released in the next couple of months.
    TLS doesn't exist :)

    Have a look at the TFS link above and post any questions on that thread and I'll try and help in any way I can.

    thanks,
    Jason



  • RosewindRosewind
    Jason.



    TLS - Tomato Lettuce and Sushi sandwich, surely you know that famous brother of the BLT?

    :D

    Typo (etc).

    Thanks
  • RosewindRosewind
    Jason (again).
    I m struggling with the little gremlins that refuse to let themselves be placed inside the text. Somehow they insist on being placed last. GRRRR.

    Thanks for the link and explanation. I will make sure to check out the stripped down transport that you are involved in making.

    Best wishes,
    Peter
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