I do believe in cable differences, but I also think they are easily explained in terms of LCR, impedance and shielding ability, nothing much else really counts.
I do believe in cable differences, but I also think they are easily explained in terms of LCR, impedance and shielding ability, nothing much else really counts.
hi, is that definative and absolute though, or is it just your own belief based on what is known at this time? all the best , matt
Simon - do you remember Richard Dunn of NVA saying he made three I/C cables that measured the same but sounded different? I have had all these cables and they are different, though I dont know how they measure. They are all constructed differently though.
That seems to show the construction, or design, makes a significant difference even with the same materials.
Simon - do you remember Richard Dunn of NVA saying he made three I/C cables that measured the same but sounded different? I have had all these cables and they are different, though I dont know how they measure. They are all constructed differently though.
That seems to show the construction, or design, makes a significant difference even with the same materials.
We share a similar experience trust your ears they are the greatest measuring tool you will ever own in your life
My ears have proved themselves Kajak, I think I'll keep them for now!
I was just seeking to pleasantly waste some time on an internet forum with my question. I'm not adverse to fresh opinions, especially when carefully measured and articulated.
I think this discussion has done rather well in exploring the issues and attitudes involved, when compared to most forums.
I'd be interested to see how you could construct a cable differently but it to measure the same. I think immunity, or otherwise, to RF is the hardest to measure, as there is no agreed standard test yet.
If you take a coiled cable, with say a central conductor that had the return spiralled around it, then adjusted the spacing between the two in an otherwise identical cable then they would measure differently, in inductance and probably capacitance also.
Frankly i wouldn't trust R.Dunn to be able to measure the distance from his arse to his elbow accurately, he certainly doesn't appear to know the difference between plastic and glass.... but I digress.
Far be it for me to speak up for Mr Dunn (those of you who don't know the story will continue to be in that happy state), but please don't take easy swipes against those who aren't here to defend themselves.
I was of course at Mr Dunn's house when two of these cables that are different but supposedly measure the same (unlikely and I agree with sq) were compared. I thought there was no sonic difference, others disagreed.
I was one of those who correctly identified each of the cables - I had them in my system and knew their sonic characteristics. Some claimed they couldn't hear any difference.
I was one of those who correctly identified each of the cables - I had them in my system and knew their sonic characteristics. Some claimed they couldn't hear any difference.
Yep. That was where we met Rob.
(BTW That was not the story I was alluding to)
Dave, I picked up the gist of the story in certain other places. You are right - least said the better.
Having to kill a few hours at Gatwick on Thursday was interested to read the interview in Hi-fi World with John Westlake DAC guru when he mentioned that in the development of his new (?) Audiolab cd/dac/pre he used components which measured badly but actually improved the sound ! Answers on a postcard please......
The DAC/CD Player has been with us for some moths Dave - come on, get with the programme!
The standalone DAC is imminent, rather than just imminently imminent....
A cool feature (in terms of nerd-dom this takes some beating), the MDAC will have the ability to measure gross aspects of jitter in real time. Way to feed audioneurosis...
What can be done about the jitter it finds? Or is the feature just there to feed neuroses until Audiolab bring out a server with miraculously no jitter?
Having to kill a few hours at Gatwick on Thursday was interested to read the interview in Hi-fi World with John Westlake DAC guru when he mentioned that in the development of his new (?) Audiolab cd/dac/pre he used components which measured badly but actually improved the sound ! Answers on a postcard please......
ps the cd/dac got a serious rave review of course
Using components that measure 'badly' is perfectly fine if it impacts the sonics and you like that impact - that is what subjectivism is all about. In extremis, you could argue that the decision to use valves is taking a 'poor' component and enjoying the subjective result. Or a small output transformer with LF saturation that sounds subjectively rich and warm due to saturation.
As another example, most people would say that a good film capacitor is better than a cheap electrolytic. But use a film cap across most common 3 pin regulators and they oscillate. Put the cheap electro in place and..... all is well. For another, if you happen to be driving say a vintage lowther speaker with a fairly modern transistor amplifier, you will get better performance by using ultra cheap and thin bell wire than a decently thick audio cable. The thick cable has much lower resistance where the bell wire is high, usually a bad thing but not when a Lowther doesn't benefit from electrical damping. So there are times when the technically poorer part is the right solution.
The Audiolab unit got a great review just as you would expect as the man knows his onions, but it wasn't a clean sheet with both response uniformity and distortion being below the best, or even a MF V-DAC.
TBH when you look at what those cheap MF and Cambridge DACs actually achieve, they come within a whisker of the very best digital kit ever produced - you need to be going to dcS level for any real technical gain.
With jitter, I actually think this is the new TID (transient intermod distortion) that was spuriously heralded in past decades as the answer to why otherwise good amplifiers sounded quite different. It is a reason to invent arguments over sound where none exist. Most consumer audio kit has jitter below the levels that should be of concern.
Fortunately we can measure jitter and the effect on the audio output in terms of distortion. Cross reference that with research into human perception limits and you'll end up quickly skimming past arguments about jitter
If you want to test this, take an Apple AE and play the analogue output against an EAC rip of the CD.
Do it blind and see what happens. You should get a small difference detected in most cases but establishing a preference isn't that easy. The analogue output on the AE has very high jitter (the digital much less).
It puts things into perspective, something easily lost with audio IMO.
Rob, I haven't heard them. But I take your point about the potential for liking various forms of sonic inaccuracies (for want of a better word). There does seem to be something about the prevailing Hifi orthodoxy that can make such admissions difficult. I suppose there's a clue in the term "hi-fi"...:-)
Not to get too philosophical, there is an implicit angle in the assertion that DACmagics & VDACs are about as good as it's possible to get - that one should just make do with these and forget about chasing rainbows.
I owned a DACMagic for a good while, and sound-for-pound it is hard to beat for sure, but I genuinely prefer other DACs. Because I think they are better - more detail, which is easier to follow, better texture, a bunch of other stuff too.
My bias is not towards spending more money on my kit - I sincerely want to have spent less than I have, and I have to prioritize economics over sonic excellence. On principle I object to much of the so-called high end geat and the companies behind them, so I don't think I am being overly naive here.
I do accept that the subjective audiophile may be led by the heart, perhaps ego or expectation bias, and spend silly amounts on silly components.
But I also contend that the objective approach above misses much much more, including perhaps the whole point of building a system. Sometimes I struggle to reconcile such an approach with my own experiences, and something has to give.
Rob, I haven't heard them. But I take your point about the potential for liking various forms of sonic inaccuracies (for want of a better word). There does seem to be something about the prevailing Hifi orthodoxy that can make such admissions difficult. I suppose there's a clue in the term "hi-fi"...:-)
Yes I don't really like the term hi-fi. It sort of implies squeaky clean perfection and I know few people who crave that. I like it in my electronics with the option to manipulate via EQ. I'm not so keen of equipment with a strong signature, speakers aside probably as I've broad taste in speakers.
I owned a DACMagic for a good while, and sound-for-pound it is hard to beat for sure, but I genuinely prefer other DACs. Because I think they are better - more detail, which is easier to follow, better texture, a bunch of other stuff too.
Hi Alan,
I think it depends what you want. Some dacs do manipulate the output.
You commonly see some HF roll off, or a little bass lift, or some very odd effects and distortion from NOS devices.
You can change the sound certainly, but from a fundamental linearity POV the MF and CA units are superb, ie very true. In that sense I think they are as good as we need. if you want a different sound, more flavoured solutions will appeal I think, and why not.
I would however strongly disagree on the issue of detail. It can be shown that everything is there with a V Dac.
Given the technical performance it cannot be actually missing or subduing detail.
Cost no object 24 bit dacs will certainly allow us to record extremely low level signals cleanly, but stuff down at -100dB isn't going to be audible and certainly not perceived as detail.
I would however strongly disagree on the issue of detail. It can be shown that everything is there with a V Dac.
I hope we get the same models in australia like you guys in the uk,v dac pretends to play music its analytical artificial no timbre, texture or tone it dont make music imho compared to other dacs i have heard side by side.
I just wanted to add my 2 cents worth. I was called upon to figure out why the chip in one of our Hamamatsu Orca cameras was producing so many 'hot' pixels whilst doing some green fluorescent protein imaging. The first order of the day was to check the integrity of the cabling itself, there wasn't any electrical problem, it was fine. At the time I was just getting interested in trying different wires within my stereo system. So I played around and actually made a cable out of some of the wire that I was trying in my sound system. The result .. even my boss, who is always a sceptic at the best of times, commented that the images we were looking at had a particular clarity about them. Which in fact they did, perhaps as the result of having far less hot pixels, due in fact to having all umbilicals made from a high purity copper wire. I also replaced the standard cheap power cables with 'after market' ones of far better quality for both the Zeiss microscope and the cameras power supply, further refining the acuity of the images even more. Why do I mention this, that's easy, I effected a visual difference in the imaging that was presented to me, a difference that I could measure properly. I used the same basic wiring in my 2-channel stereo system and the audible difference was there to be sure! Yes we all know the arguement about sonic memory and how short lived it is. Right, like you've forgotten who you mother is when she calls you on the telephone because your sonic memory is too short. Try explaining that to her next time she calls and you have to enquire who it is!
For my own DC power cable I used a popular quad-braid wire and some very well made DC plugs from a Japanese manufacturer. I have done extensive A/B tests with some of my audio friends listening and we've all agreed that the homemade cable is vastly superior to the cable that shipped with the power supply for my amplifier. Needless to say, none of the umbilicals or power cords are of the cheap variety that ships in the box with any of my components. I went so far as to completely rewire my speakers, replacing the cheesey hardware quality wire that I sadly discovered inside with one of Kimbers decent quality products. Does it make a difference, it sure does, I could even hear an ant burping loudly off to the left corner of the Columbia Studios when Miles was recording "Kind of Blue". Well, it 'may' have been an ant, given how short sonic memory is, I couldn't recall!
Hi Col, hope you are feeling a bit better of late,
you raise some interesting points, when i first declared my astonishment with Tq cable on 'another forum' ,lots of guys there suggested similar points of contention that certain sceptics refused to accept , the sceptics swore blind that a 25 year old length of speaker they salvaged from a recording studio was better (nae, the best), the only reason they gave was that if the cable was good enough for a recording studio then it simply was better than any cable available in the retail sector ,
as i have mentioned a few times here and there ,we simply dont have full understanding of the complexities of cable interaction within an audio system, if cables had been researched at the same pace and in tandem with the audio systems that they are an integral component of ,we most likely would have asked all the questions 50 years ago that you are toying with now ,
from my own findings , gathered from a decade of knocking together DIY power cables etc that cable is massively influential on the sum outcome of a system and a system can be great or terrible depending on all the cable chosen ,
even in my bedroom system one of the mains sockets has only 20 inches of cable between it and the fuse board ,the other socket in the same room has some 30 feet , when i use the 20 inch fed socket i get a tighter more immediate sound , this has been made even clearer with the use of Tq cables in the system , so i can only conclude i have a very audible knock on effect where each element is only as good as the weakest link in the chain,
with TV ,i can notice differences in the picture quality with different power cables but, only when viewing Hi Def broadcasts , on standard broadcasts i doesnt matter, as far as i can tell.
i would hope that at least some of the cable manufacturers are actually researching in depth what is going on when different cable are used and that they are not just blindly trying to sell the same bit of metal in a different coloured insulation, i believe that some are doing just that but hopefully companies like Tellurium q will be something of a wake up call for those that are just selling bits of wire that despite complex construction and high prices dont actually bring an improvement as they are just feeding the sceptics ,
to all who experiment with cable in their system ,please keep doing so , you never know you may just discover something special.
I also think power cables can improve sound, but why.
On a resistive load there should be no difference, but is it because most audio equipment does not react like a resistive load. Is it due to:-???
1) current being pulled in peaks as the AC-DC bridge rectifier diode draw current only on peaks thus topping up the bulk or reservoir capacitors relatively at high speed compared to the base mains frequency of 50Hz or 60Hz.
OK it happens every 10ms etc but what are the edges like? and can the normal cooker cable handle this rising edge.
(sub thought does a high speed cable damage the rectifiers on there peak inrush current into the load of capacitors?)
2) does the extra large capacitance in the cable reduce the interference from the mains supply and acting like a common mode choke filter design?
3) both?
4) better conductive materials?
5) all of the above?
And is the improvement more noticeable on devices with SMPSU with or without PFC.
Why does a short run sound good when all the rest of the house wiring is normally rubbish?
Is it also due to the chemical reaction causing a extra resistive effect or diode effect on the mains connector. And the combination all these factors which should reduce the power peak power demand on the cable.
But then why does it not seem to increase the performance of a TV? or does it and I eye brain configuration fills in the missing bits on crap cable.
Lets face it our hearing is far more attuned in the wild as a survival instinct as it gets dark eye are useless. Could this be why we hear small difference and not see them?
Try wriggling the plug a bit. That sometimes works.
Col, Richard (who makes my NVA amp) maintains the differences in power cords are very real, albeit subtle. In his experience, its the IEC socket that causes the problems, their effect is apparently gross compared to the actual wire.
He chooses (what he considers to be decent) wire - presumably having trialled various cords - and hard-wires them into his amps. How does that fit in with what you're thinking?
Hate! Yeah right...I don't know how a cable can do that stuff! I will try to demo some of the ultra some day, to see how much better it can be! Pretty fantastic cable there mate, well done.
Comments
http://www.stereophile.com/reference/1095cable/index.html
interesting reading
is that definative and absolute though, or is it just your own belief based on what is known at this time?
all the best ,
matt
That seems to show the construction, or design, makes a significant difference even with the same materials.
We share a similar experience trust your ears they are the greatest measuring tool you will ever own in your life
enjoy your journey
I was just seeking to pleasantly waste some time on an internet forum with my question. I'm not adverse to fresh opinions, especially when carefully measured and articulated.
I think this discussion has done rather well in exploring the issues and attitudes involved, when compared to most forums.
Having to kill a few hours at Gatwick on Thursday was interested to read the interview in Hi-fi World with John Westlake DAC guru when he mentioned that in the development of his new (?) Audiolab cd/dac/pre he used components which measured badly but actually improved the sound ! Answers on a postcard please......
ps the cd/dac got a serious rave review of course
The standalone DAC is imminent, rather than just imminently imminent....
A cool feature (in terms of nerd-dom this takes some beating), the MDAC will have the ability to measure gross aspects of jitter in real time. Way to feed audioneurosis...
I haven't heard them. But I take your point about the potential for liking various forms of sonic inaccuracies (for want of a better word). There does seem to be something about the prevailing Hifi orthodoxy that can make such admissions difficult.
I suppose there's a clue in the term "hi-fi"...:-)
I owned a DACMagic for a good while, and sound-for-pound it is hard to beat for sure, but I genuinely prefer other DACs. Because I think they are better - more detail, which is easier to follow, better texture, a bunch of other stuff too.
My bias is not towards spending more money on my kit - I sincerely want to have spent less than I have, and I have to prioritize economics over sonic excellence. On principle I object to much of the so-called high end geat and the companies behind them, so I don't think I am being overly naive here.
I do accept that the subjective audiophile may be led by the heart, perhaps ego or expectation bias, and spend silly amounts on silly components.
But I also contend that the objective approach above misses much much more, including perhaps the whole point of building a system. Sometimes I struggle to reconcile such an approach with my own experiences, and something has to give.
I hope we get the same models in australia like you guys in the uk,v dac pretends to play music its analytical artificial no timbre, texture or tone it dont make music imho compared to other dacs i have heard side by side.
I was called upon to figure out why the chip in one of our Hamamatsu Orca cameras was producing so many 'hot' pixels whilst doing some green fluorescent protein imaging.
The first order of the day was to check the integrity of the cabling itself, there wasn't any electrical problem, it was fine.
At the time I was just getting interested in trying different wires within my stereo system. So I played around and actually made a cable out of some of the wire that I was trying in my sound system.
The result .. even my boss, who is always a sceptic at the best of times, commented that the images we were looking at had a particular clarity about them. Which in fact they did, perhaps as the result of having far less hot pixels, due in fact to having all umbilicals made from a high purity copper wire.
I also replaced the standard cheap power cables with 'after market' ones of far better quality for both the Zeiss microscope and the cameras power supply, further refining the acuity of the images even more.
Why do I mention this, that's easy, I effected a visual difference in the imaging that was presented to me, a difference that I could measure properly.
I used the same basic wiring in my 2-channel stereo system and the audible difference was there to be sure! Yes we all know the arguement about sonic memory and how short lived it is. Right, like you've forgotten who you mother is when she calls you on the telephone because your sonic memory is too short. Try explaining that to her next time she calls and you have to enquire who it is!
For my own DC power cable I used a popular quad-braid wire and some very well made DC plugs from a Japanese manufacturer. I have done extensive A/B tests with some of my audio friends listening and we've all agreed that the homemade cable is vastly superior to the cable that shipped with the power supply for my amplifier.
Needless to say, none of the umbilicals or power cords are of the cheap variety that ships in the box with any of my components. I went so far as to completely rewire my speakers, replacing the cheesey hardware quality wire that I sadly discovered inside with one of Kimbers decent quality products.
Does it make a difference, it sure does, I could even hear an ant burping loudly off to the left corner of the Columbia Studios when Miles was recording "Kind of Blue".
Well, it 'may' have been an ant, given how short sonic memory is, I couldn't recall!
I think that was someone else. I am incapable of any engineering work.
My PSU testing would get no further than "It works...It doesn't work".
:-D
Col, Richard (who makes my NVA amp) maintains the differences in power cords are very real, albeit subtle. In his experience, its the IEC socket that causes the problems, their effect is apparently gross compared to the actual wire.
He chooses (what he considers to be decent) wire - presumably having trialled various cords - and hard-wires them into his amps. How does that fit in with what you're thinking?
Hope you're feeling a bit better this week?
>:D<