OK, OK stop fibbing, Dave has tried for year to get rid of me, but I keep hacking back in ............................................................................................................................ with a dreadful cough, and he lets me back.
OK, I won't bring up Richard again. A real shame as I think it's nice to have the participation of manufacturers on forums.
Thanks GD, much appreciated. I agree, it is a shame.
As you're interested in NVA, did you know there is an NVA forum/Richard Dunn blog? It used to be a good source of information, and was a way to chat with other NVA'ers. It's called 'The HiFi-Subjectivist'.
I hope that helps? (I can't help but feel I'm recommending a trip into the lion's den here - I hope you enjoy the banter over there, but please don't believe everything you read!)
I don't think we have ever let a link to that forum stand before, but let's see what happens. I feel there ought to be a public health warning with it...
Thanks Alan and DB for the link. I came across the old archive site of hifisubjectivist and thought that it was dead so didn't bother looking for it any further.
I've not done anything with or had any interest in hi-fi for the last 20 years. It's only now after I pulled some old stuff out of storage because we're moving and it's time for a clear out that it's peaked my interest again. Once I fired up the old equipment and found how much better it sounded than the 'make do' Asian stuff I was currently using that I have truly been bitten by the bug again.
I have A40, A60, A80, AP20, P50, P90SA The thing with NVA power amps is that they are all *exactly* the same except for the transformers. Up to A80 there is a single transformer. The va rating of the transformer increases. The voltage is the same more or less, so the higher amps don't play any louder. When you get to the A80 there are 2 transformers per channel (I think these days he uses 2x160va transformers but in the old days he used bigger trannies and bigger/better capacitors) The idea is that the top amp (TDS) should have 4 trannies per channel, but as I understand it the amp boards are quite cheaply made and can't handle the 4 trannies without blowing so I think he uses 3 instead. I'm pretty sure there are no 3rd gen TDSes with 4 trannies per channel, only 1st gen have 4 (like Dave's)
Anyway, the point is don't expect a *massive* difference as you go up the range and the A80 is probably the sweet spot IMO. I would also suggest looking out for used amps as in my experience the older ones were potentially better made. Certainly if I compare the older A80 I have to the newer one, the older one has bigger transformers and bigger better capacitors.
Also, understand that these amps have no output protection so you have to be careful not to short the speaker cables, and be prepared to potentially damage your speakers if they do blow.
Regarding pre amps, I bought this stepped attenuator pre for my folk's system. I could hear very little difference between it and the P50SA. That seller has other pres so look around his store and is also very helpful and responsive. For the P50SA / P90SA NVA just buy these stepped attenuators (dual or mono) ready-built and simply assemble the amp - no magic and any well made stepped attenuator passive pre will perform at a similarly high level. There are plenty available so shop around and you'll get the same performance for a lot less.
Finally if you are going to head over to HFS you may as well know what you are getting into so you may want to read through this thread to get a flavour of things. RD hasn't been banned from most forums for no reason...
To be clear and to end on a positive, the circuit that is used in the NVA amps does sound very good as you'll discover.
Jason, re the improvements up the range i agree. My comparisons last week of an ap10p, ap30 and tss revealed definite differences, but not chasms in performance. Also, as i noted in the other thread differences for me were more to do with clarity and frequency extension, not "volume" or perceived loudness. So again i concur.
Back when I heard my TDSs for the first time, I was running bi-amped A70s and A80s. There was a HUGE difference in performance, which is why I got the TDSs.
Back when I heard my TDSs for the first time, I was running bi-amped A70s and A80s. There was a HUGE difference in performance, which is why I got the TDSs.
Dave, I have no doubt about what you say and it's one of my points. There's a difference with the NVA amps of the past and the current ones. In the past I get the impression that Statement amps were just that - a statement of what could be done when money and effort (within reason) were no object. Your TDS has gold tracks and hand picked components that I suspect NVA built themselves in their factory. It was an expression of the best implementation of that particular circuit that NVA has chosen to use in their amps. I suspect the non-statement amps of the day had cheaper and inferior components as well as smaller and fewer transformers. So no doubt there *was* a big difference with Statement amps in those days.
These days however all the amps have the same cheap boards and components mass produced and only assembled by NVA, including the 'Statement' amps. Since the only difference in the current range between Statement and non-statement is transformers and acrylic case (and in some instances just the case ), we shouldn't expect earth shattering differences.
It would actually be very interesting to hear your TDS Dave along side a modern TDS. Yours has smaller transformers but 4 of them instead of 3 per channel and better components and PCB. I suspect it's the best TDS out there right now and if you were ever tempted to sell it I'd be surprised if it fetched less than £3k.
Back when I heard my TDSs for the first time, I was running bi-amped A70s and A80s. There was a HUGE difference in performance, which is why I got the TDSs.
Dave, I have no doubt about what you say and it's one of my points. There's a difference with the NVA amps of the past and the current ones. In the past I get the impression that Statement amps were just that - a statement of what could be done when money and effort (within reason) were no object. Your TDS has gold tracks and hand picked components that I suspect NVA built themselves in their factory. It was an expression of the best implementation of that particular circuit that NVA has chosen to use in their amps. I suspect the non-statement amps of the day had cheaper and inferior components as well as smaller and fewer transformers. So no doubt there *was* a big difference with Statement amps in those days.
These days however all the amps have the same cheap boards and components mass produced and only assembled by NVA, including the 'Statement' amps. Since the only difference in the current range between Statement and non-statement is transformers and acrylic case (and in some instances just the case ), we shouldn't expect earth shattering differences.
It would actually be very interesting to hear your TDS Dave along side a modern TDS. Yours has smaller transformers but 4 of them instead of 3 per channel and better components and PCB. I suspect it's the best TDS out there right now and if you were ever tempted to sell it I'd be surprised if it fetched less than £3k.
I'll bow to your knowledge of current NVA models and standards.
I think I'd possibly let the TDSs (they're a pair of monoblocks, of course) - and their passive - go if someone waved the right amount of cash under my nose. House move and that coming up.
Comments
As you're interested in NVA, did you know there is an NVA forum/Richard Dunn blog? It used to be a good source of information, and was a way to chat with other NVA'ers. It's called 'The HiFi-Subjectivist'.
I hope that helps? (I can't help but feel I'm recommending a trip into the lion's den here - I hope you enjoy the banter over there, but please don't believe everything you read!)
I don't think we have ever let a link to that forum stand before, but let's see what happens. I feel there ought to be a public health warning with it...
I've not done anything with or had any interest in hi-fi for the last 20 years. It's only now after I pulled some old stuff out of storage because we're moving and it's time for a clear out that it's peaked my interest again. Once I fired up the old equipment and found how much better it sounded than the 'make do' Asian stuff I was currently using that I have truly been bitten by the bug again.
I have A40, A60, A80, AP20, P50, P90SA
The thing with NVA power amps is that they are all *exactly* the same except for the transformers.
Up to A80 there is a single transformer. The va rating of the transformer increases. The voltage is the same more or less, so the higher amps don't play any louder.
When you get to the A80 there are 2 transformers per channel (I think these days he uses 2x160va transformers but in the old days he used bigger trannies and bigger/better capacitors)
The idea is that the top amp (TDS) should have 4 trannies per channel, but as I understand it the amp boards are quite cheaply made and can't handle the 4 trannies without blowing so I think he uses 3 instead. I'm pretty sure there are no 3rd gen TDSes with 4 trannies per channel, only 1st gen have 4 (like Dave's)
Anyway, the point is don't expect a *massive* difference as you go up the range and the A80 is probably the sweet spot IMO.
I would also suggest looking out for used amps as in my experience the older ones were potentially better made. Certainly if I compare the older A80 I have to the newer one, the older one has bigger transformers and bigger better capacitors.
Also, understand that these amps have no output protection so you have to be careful not to short the speaker cables, and be prepared to potentially damage your speakers if they do blow.
Regarding pre amps, I bought this stepped attenuator pre for my folk's system.
I could hear very little difference between it and the P50SA. That seller has other pres so look around his store and is also very helpful and responsive.
For the P50SA / P90SA NVA just buy these stepped attenuators (dual or mono) ready-built and simply assemble the amp - no magic and any well made stepped attenuator passive pre will perform at a similarly high level. There are plenty available so shop around and you'll get the same performance for a lot less.
Finally if you are going to head over to HFS you may as well know what you are getting into so you may want to read through this thread to get a flavour of things. RD hasn't been banned from most forums for no reason...
To be clear and to end on a positive, the circuit that is used in the NVA amps does sound very good as you'll discover.
There's a difference with the NVA amps of the past and the current ones. In the past I get the impression that Statement amps were just that - a statement of what could be done when money and effort (within reason) were no object.
Your TDS has gold tracks and hand picked components that I suspect NVA built themselves in their factory. It was an expression of the best implementation of that particular circuit that NVA has chosen to use in their amps. I suspect the non-statement amps of the day had cheaper and inferior components as well as smaller and fewer transformers.
So no doubt there *was* a big difference with Statement amps in those days.
These days however all the amps have the same cheap boards and components mass produced and only assembled by NVA, including the 'Statement' amps.
Since the only difference in the current range between Statement and non-statement is transformers and acrylic case (and in some instances just the case
It would actually be very interesting to hear your TDS Dave along side a modern TDS. Yours has smaller transformers but 4 of them instead of 3 per channel and better components and PCB. I suspect it's the best TDS out there right now and if you were ever tempted to sell it I'd be surprised if it fetched less than £3k.
Very interesting indeed.
Once in a lifetime opportunity