Thanks for the kind comments Ben. Just delighted you're pleased with the end result. I could get all nerdy and explain why the imaging is better (by design) but it's enough just to say that it is plus there shouldn't be as many issues about messing the imaging by placing closer to boundaries as level off-axis performance has that advantage.
nerdy ... explain ... (by design) ... there shouldn't be as many issues about messing the imaging by placing closer to boundaries as level off-axis performance has that advantage.
Decided add a finishing touch to The RFC-Goodwoords and recover the grilles. (Colour chosen by Mrs. Docfoster, her first ever direct influence on my hifi.) Very smart they're looking too...
The only remaining thing is a replacement 'Goodmans' badge for the one above. The badges come up on Ebay from time to time, so I'll be patient.
I perceive that they sound better too than they did with the old black grille covers. That old black sack-cloth was slightly stifling the sound somewhat.
The faint view of the drivers through the new covers is due to the flash on my iphone. The covers are completely opaque under normal lighting.
Finally, if I ever find myself incharge of a cruel and oppressive polititcal regime I now after today's alterations that glue-guns would make a painful and effective form of torture.
Merry bloody Christmas to you, Mr. Alan "Santa" Brown. Your pulling that out of your sack has put a smile on my face.
Is it off your Magisters...? It looks like an exact match for the one on my left channel. If you don't want it I'll gladly send you a few squids for it.
They fit really well into your room Ben and the new grill cloth is a nice touch
The caps and new drivers should have all bedded in nicely by now.....?
Thanks. Yes. Surpising how much less they stand out visually now with the old black covers gone. Also, I am as sure as I can be that the new cloth is a lot more transparent.
The sound is fantastic, Paul. Simply breath taking. Every sound is done well. I am certainly wreaping the benefits of all your research, mathematics, listening and hard work. And as you predicted Paul, the speakers are extremely revealing of recordings, which is overwhelmingly a good thing.
At some point after introducing the ID25 power amp I noticed buzzing / distortion coming from the woofer in the left speaker when played loud. Various swappings and switching identified that it was indeed the 40 year old driver that just couldn't cope with that Wonfor bass... ;-) I've been on the lookout for a replacement, and a pair came up recently. I consulted with my speaker advisor (Paul "Guru" RFC) and he suggested they'd be worth a punt if I could get 'em cheap. Well 99p + postage cheap for the pair is as it turned out. (The seller honestly stated that 1 of them had some coil rub, so I may only get one working jobbie). They arrived this morning, and I (yes I) fitted the non-rubbing one where the old distorting one had been. No distrotion anymore... :-) And I didn't kill anyone (AFAIK) while fitting it (soldered connections mind....).
The new driver is very much cleaner and fresher looking than the one I took out which is convered in several feet of doping...
I'd say the new one is chucking out a lot more level. Most noticably in the high bass. This seems to have raised bass levels and overall scale. Significantly so I'd say. It sounds different. Bass lines are more prominent. Certainly no distortion, even at full volume, so it's a definite improvement, though obviously there's probably a mismatch between the bass drivers in each speaker now. Paul has promised to test the new drivers soon, so that will reveal a bit more about what's going on.
The other new driver does have some coil rub, so I'll probably wait to talk things through with Paul before deciding what to do overall. Obviously my not having matched drivers is something that'll keep Paul awake till then... ;-)
Ok. I couldn't resist. I managed to persuade myself that the coil rub on the new driver was no worse than that on the old... :-/ Both new drivers in...
My wife took this photo when she came home work. She's used to my hifi-based odditities, but the poor woman was bemused to find me kneeling infront of a speaker while the system was playing at maximum volume. As result, I didn't hear her come in.
What I was doing (isn't it obvious?) was trying to detect evidence of coil rub. (Possibly a little with my ear pressed against the dust cap with the volume maxed out.)
As my pose in the photo below is not representative of my usual listening position / style during standard listening sessions, I'm not that bothered. (Is there some other aspect of coil rub about which I should be concerned...?).
Really pleased that the drivers arrived in such good time. And love it that you couldnt wait for Paul's advice before replacing the second. And who are you kidding about that photo? Everyone suspects you kowtow to your Goodmans each morning and evening. You just got caught this time is all ;-)
Really pleased that the drivers arrived in such good time. And love it that you couldnt wait for Paul's advice before replacing the second. And who are you kidding about that photo? Everyone suspects you kowtow to your Goodmans each morning and evening. You just got caught this time is all ;-)
I am actually facing East in that photo (genuinely) so, yes, bang to rights. Oh and I'm waiting for the telling off from Paul. :-(
Hmmm. I think Paul is going to be cross. Clearly these new drivers are performing differently to the old (doped?) ones. Not sure if they're just more sensitive overall or whether they're extending higher up. My perception is that they are overlapping with the midrange driver causing some lower-mid (upper-bass) bloating. Snare drums are sounding a bit sticky and thick. I hope Mr RFC isn't too busy or too rich or too sick-of-the-sight-of-Goodwoods-Goodmans to take on a bit of crossover tweaking work... :-B
They're not original AFAICS. The 'doping' is actually a one piece plastic layer which covers the whiole cone and is the speaker surround. It's integral to the unit's design. It looks like someone has had old Goodmans units re-coned and this has altered the performance of the drivers. The new surrounds are probably more compliant than the rigid originals, and/or the cones are a different mass now.
Ben, you probably have a case for getting your money back if they are not as described, and look out for some unmolested ones.
You may be right about the reconing Alam. They don't look 40 years old...! But the seller didn't miss sell them. He didn't know what they were. Nice guy actually. I'm not sure about the old ones, they look to have been painted with something - it's collected in a pool around the dustcap before drying out (visible in photo above). But may be that is the plastic layer you describe. I'm hoping to push some work Paul's way to see if the cross overs can be tweaked to compensate for the change in perfoance. Tbh i'm happy withthe new ones - they have a bigger cleaner sound. Could work out well as long as tweaking can be successfully carried outby RFC in Dursely. :-)
Alan - you are (of course) correct. From what i can see, all the pics of Goodwoods on t'interweb have the same residue around the dust cap. Must have been the standard application process back in the day. I will never question thy insight again...!
New drivers update... Smoother, more punchy, deeper, bigger scale. Just "better" sounding. My ears/brain have grown somewhat accustomed to their upper bass response, though it's still annoying on on well recorded vox and snare... Hopefully we can roll that off a little in time. Unless my brain/ears do it automatically! :-)
Well, I go away for a few days and this is the result! )
Alan's right. They're not original cones Ben and will have a very different response, especially in cone break up resonance/distortion and in FR. The originals were doped so that distortion due to cone breakup at resonance was controlled but the new ones aren't. They may have a lower Fs if the surrounds are more compliant but this also depends on the spider suspension.
One thing is for certain, and that is you can't just swap drivers and expect the same crossover. The LF crossover point would have to be re-established from measurement. If they sound fine, then don't worry about it too much. I suspect that the balance won't be right though...how can it be running different cones/suspension and possibly voice coil for different TS parameters?.
The final arbitor though is yourself. If you like what they do, stick with them.
The bake-off sounds like a fun idea...the Rhapsodys are in fine fettle and ready to take on all-comers
Ps...that photo of you with the soldering iron...well, it's just plain wrong...reminds me of the Bates Motel (or something) :-O
Glad to have you back Paul. :-) I think that my thoughts remain as above. The new ones seem to be doing a lot well, but are too forward in the upper bass. I'm hoping that if that was to be sorted, things could be *even* better than before. As you suggest, some measured cross over tweaking by an established expert would be most welcome... Know you of such a person...? ;-)
I'm looking forward to a sesh with the progressed Rhapsodies too... :-)
Could be they're more sensitive Ben or need taming above current crossover point. I really need the old drivers and the new ones, to measure the response of both before changing anything.
Lets pencil in a sesh later in the week if you like for the Rhapsodys
They'll need measuring mounted into the cabs Ben, so looks like cabs plus drivers.
Phase integration with mids also needs checking. You may get away with just a change to the bass inductor, but also likely with those cones that you'll need a notch filter of they're raised in SPL above crossover point compared with older cones. That would mean no room on the present board and any notch filter needing mounting separately and wiring in to the PCB. We'll see.
I got to hear the "final" Rhapsodies... More to come elsewhere here.
Paul made a good inspection of the new driver and identified a problem* at a frequency that seemed to correlated with the lift in upper bass / lower mid and with the fact that they are undoped drivers. Paul suggested 3 possibilities for rectifying this: 1. Tweak the crossover. But, this would be costly as the necessary part* would not be cheap and would have to be modified. Also the tweak may have knock on effects elsewhere. 2. Redesign the crossover around the new drivers. Too timely. Too expensive. 3. Dope the new drivers to reduce sensitivity to the levels of the existing ones. We are going for this one.
More than this, Paul had a hunch as to why the one original driver was distorting / buzzing at certain bass frequencies that may be cured by redoping the centre of the speaker. So Paul is going to do this too.
So we have ordered some dope (I haven't done that since 1997) and we will see what we will see. And, I *may* end up with 2 pairs of working and matched drivers. :-)
* You will note that I have avoided specifics that Paul very clearly explained to me just hours ago. This is because I have a terrible memory and limited technical knowledge.. Doubtless Paul can fill in the gaps!
And...it has audibly worked... The Goodmans are back and sounding great. Paul believed that the doping's effect on 'cone break up' at some bothersome frequencies has more to do with the pleasing change in sound than has its attenuation of overall bass response (which according to Paul's measurements turned out to be slightly less than hoped for before the dope ran out). As always many thanks to Paul. His attention to detail in tracking down exactly the right doping product, researching how to apply it, applying it in incremental and measured stages really makes his work stand out for me. I feel very lucky to have my very own speaker surgeon on my doorstep. That said, I'm hopeful that the Goodmans won't require any further visits (there's not a lot left of the orginial speakers now). I won't go into the details of the process and results (although I do have some beautiful and interesting graphs). I am sure Pau can fill us in, when he has a minute between building his own speakers and redesigning his website. Thanks Paul. :-) =D>
Nearly there... Paul suggested that raising the speakers by 10inches (a figure that I doubt he merely plucked out of the air) would be worth trying in the service of losing the last couple of bass dBs that the doping didin't quite get to After testing the raising process via use of some bricks, I picked up a couple of short stands cheap on ebay, and hey presto, things are improved. I'll be on the lookout for some more sturdy platforms over the coming months. Bass sounds even more tuneful and controlled. No lack of slam or depth. Nice having the tweeters at ear level too.
Comments
Love it.
(Colour chosen by Mrs. Docfoster, her first ever direct influence on my hifi.)
Very smart they're looking too...
The only remaining thing is a replacement 'Goodmans' badge for the one above.
The badges come up on Ebay from time to time, so I'll be patient.
I perceive that they sound better too than they did with the old black grille covers. That old black sack-cloth was slightly stifling the sound somewhat.
The faint view of the drivers through the new covers is due to the flash on my iphone. The covers are completely opaque under normal lighting.
Finally, if I ever find myself incharge of a cruel and oppressive polititcal regime I now after today's alterations that glue-guns would make a painful and effective form of torture.
Merry bloody Christmas to you, Mr. Alan "Santa" Brown.
Your pulling that out of your sack has put a smile on my face.
Is it off your Magisters...? It looks like an exact match for the one on my left channel.
If you don't want it I'll gladly send you a few squids for it.
8->
The sound is fantastic, Paul. Simply breath taking. Every sound is done well. I am certainly wreaping the benefits of all your research, mathematics, listening and hard work.
And as you predicted Paul, the speakers are extremely revealing of recordings, which is overwhelmingly a good thing.
The badge was from some old Magnums I think - I had several pairs over the years (Magisters still have their badges).
Just ping me your address Ben - I'll pop it in the post for you. The charge is continuing friendship. A bit steep, I know...
The RFC - Goodmans - Brown's are now complete! :-)
I've been on the lookout for a replacement, and a pair came up recently. I consulted with my speaker advisor (Paul "Guru" RFC) and he suggested they'd be worth a punt if I could get 'em cheap. Well 99p + postage cheap for the pair is as it turned out. (The seller honestly stated that 1 of them had some coil rub, so I may only get one working jobbie).
They arrived this morning, and I (yes I) fitted the non-rubbing one where the old distorting one had been.
No distrotion anymore... :-) And I didn't kill anyone (AFAIK) while fitting it (soldered connections mind....).
The new driver is very much cleaner and fresher looking than the one I took out which is convered in several feet of doping...
I'd say the new one is chucking out a lot more level. Most noticably in the high bass. This seems to have raised bass levels and overall scale. Significantly so I'd say. It sounds different. Bass lines are more prominent. Certainly no distortion, even at full volume, so it's a definite improvement, though obviously there's probably a mismatch between the bass drivers in each speaker now. Paul has promised to test the new drivers soon, so that will reveal a bit more about what's going on.
The other new driver does have some coil rub, so I'll probably wait to talk things through with Paul before deciding what to do overall. Obviously my not having matched drivers is something that'll keep Paul awake till then... ;-)
Dr. Solder will see you now...
I couldn't resist.
I managed to persuade myself that the coil rub on the new driver was no worse than that on the old... :-/
Both new drivers in...
What I was doing (isn't it obvious?) was trying to detect evidence of coil rub. (Possibly a little with my ear pressed against the dust cap with the volume maxed out.)
As my pose in the photo below is not representative of my usual listening position / style during standard listening sessions, I'm not that bothered. (Is there some other aspect of coil rub about which I should be concerned...?).
They'll call me the hifi world's Josef Fritzl. Colin locked in the spare bedroom,Paul in the summer house...
And who are you kidding about that photo? Everyone suspects you kowtow to your Goodmans each morning and evening. You just got caught this time is all ;-)
Oh and I'm waiting for the telling off from Paul. :-(
I think Paul is going to be cross. Clearly these new drivers are performing differently to the old (doped?) ones. Not sure if they're just more sensitive overall or whether they're extending higher up. My perception is that they are overlapping with the midrange driver causing some lower-mid (upper-bass) bloating. Snare drums are sounding a bit sticky and thick.
I hope Mr RFC isn't too busy or too rich or too sick-of-the-sight-of-Goodwoods-Goodmans to take on a bit of crossover tweaking work...
:-B
Ben, you probably have a case for getting your money back if they are not as described, and look out for some unmolested ones.
But the seller didn't miss sell them. He didn't know what they were. Nice guy actually.
I'm not sure about the old ones, they look to have been painted with something - it's collected in a pool around the dustcap before drying out (visible in photo above). But may be that is the plastic layer you describe.
I'm hoping to push some work Paul's way to see if the cross overs can be tweaked to compensate for the change in perfoance.
Tbh i'm happy withthe new ones - they have a bigger cleaner sound. Could work out well as long as tweaking can be successfully carried outby RFC in Dursely. :-)
My OB' will eat your little Goodmans alive
Smoother, more punchy, deeper, bigger scale. Just "better" sounding. My ears/brain have grown somewhat accustomed to their upper bass response, though it's still annoying on on well recorded vox and snare... Hopefully we can roll that off a little in time. Unless my brain/ears do it automatically! :-)
[He types in a loud voice]
Everything sounds ok.
Psychoacoustic neutralisation...?
Am I this easily self deceived...?
All confidence in my own ears shot to bits. Oh well....
I think that my thoughts remain as above. The new ones seem to be doing a lot well, but are too forward in the upper bass. I'm hoping that if that was to be sorted, things could be *even* better than before.
As you suggest, some measured cross over tweaking by an established expert would be most welcome...
Know you of such a person...? ;-)
I'm looking forward to a sesh with the progressed Rhapsodies too... :-)
Old drivers still here.
Wednesday afternoon or the weekend are good for me Paul. Have a think and give me a shout. :-)
Paul made a good inspection of the new driver and identified a problem* at a frequency that seemed to correlated with the lift in upper bass / lower mid and with the fact that they are undoped drivers. Paul suggested 3 possibilities for rectifying this:
1. Tweak the crossover. But, this would be costly as the necessary part* would not be cheap and would have to be modified. Also the tweak may have knock on effects elsewhere.
2. Redesign the crossover around the new drivers. Too timely. Too expensive.
3. Dope the new drivers to reduce sensitivity to the levels of the existing ones. We are going for this one.
More than this, Paul had a hunch as to why the one original driver was distorting / buzzing at certain bass frequencies that may be cured by redoping the centre of the speaker. So Paul is going to do this too.
So we have ordered some dope (I haven't done that since 1997) and we will see what we will see.
And, I *may* end up with 2 pairs of working and matched drivers. :-)
* You will note that I have avoided specifics that Paul very clearly explained to me just hours ago. This is because I have a terrible memory and limited technical knowledge.. Doubtless Paul can fill in the gaps!
And...it has audibly worked...
The Goodmans are back and sounding great.
Paul believed that the doping's effect on 'cone break up' at some bothersome frequencies has more to do with the pleasing change in sound than has its attenuation of overall bass response (which according to Paul's measurements turned out to be slightly less than hoped for before the dope ran out).
As always many thanks to Paul. His attention to detail in tracking down exactly the right doping product, researching how to apply it, applying it in incremental and measured stages really makes his work stand out for me. I feel very lucky to have my very own speaker surgeon on my doorstep. That said, I'm hopeful that the Goodmans won't require any further visits (there's not a lot left of the orginial speakers now).
I won't go into the details of the process and results (although I do have some beautiful and interesting graphs). I am sure Pau can fill us in, when he has a minute between building his own speakers and redesigning his website.
Thanks Paul. :-)
=D>
Paul suggested that raising the speakers by 10inches (a figure that I doubt he merely plucked out of the air) would be worth trying in the service of losing the last couple of bass dBs that the doping didin't quite get to
After testing the raising process via use of some bricks, I picked up a couple of short stands cheap on ebay, and hey presto, things are improved. I'll be on the lookout for some more sturdy platforms over the coming months.
Bass sounds even more tuneful and controlled. No lack of slam or depth.
Nice having the tweeters at ear level too.