Santa to bring vinyl

Brumjam

Stop press:  All being well I will own a turntable by Xmas. Nothing to snazzy, just a Rega RP1 to get me going unless anyone can think of a better table for around £200?  I realise I'm opening a large can of upgrade worms but the temptation has gotten to much 

The Rega appeals because for a complete novice like me there seems little to setup.  It comes with arm and cart.  My preamp has an MM/MC switchable input, so I hope I'll have everything ready to go.

PAC

Project Debut Carbon for £300is a stunner and for the money the Essential 2 or Debut SE/3 are also worth a look. All come with arms and carts fitted and are factory set-up.

Alan

Well done James - I am about an inch from taking the same plunge myself!

I think a Thorens TD150-160 is a no brainer @ the £150 mark, it is superbly engineered and apparently capable of great things.

I was keen on a Lenco GL75 as they are so cheap, and can be incrementally improved to top class performance.

But I still want the Garrard 401 the most, as it can wallop the other 2.

It'll have to be next year now, as I'm playing with another distraction at the moment. I shall watch your adventures with vinyl with keen interest.

uglymusic

Yup. I must say that I'd probably go for a 401, too.

Alan

Why, is a 4012 better than a 401?

Brumjam

How do we think something like a Thorens TD160 would compare with a modern Rega or Project? Trouble with the older decks is purely one of timing the purchase in line with Xmas, as it will be a present.

Thanks for your PM Paul.....will think on that.

James

uglymusic

Why, is a 4012 better than a 401?

Daft man! It's obvious it's better  8-}

PAC

In general the advantages of newer GOOD budget decks over decks like the Thorens TD160 include better speed stability and better tonearms plus more thought is put into using composites for plinths (even wrapped MDF) which ring less than some of the older plinths.

The TD160 needs to be well serviced and fitted with a decent arm to match most decent budget decks.  By that time, you'll have invested more than a modern replacement.  Their saving grace is that they can be picked up cheap and a re a good way into vinyl

The 401 is viewed with rose tinted glasses imho and I'm not going to be popular with what I'm about to say.  I have one and like it but no way is it a patch on a decent modern deck in many respects.  Idler rumble and motor isolation can be minimised by having the deck serviced and replacement idler bush bearings fitted but a 401 will never have the noise floor of something like a Technodeck, Gyro, VPI or any modern well engineered belt drive.  I have quite a posh tonearm on my 401 and it is in fabulous condition, but my Gyro wipes the floor with it tbh.  the 301/401 have a pretty dreadful main spindle bearing arrangement and whilst it works well when new, once worn, it creates drag and noise but can be ameliorated to some extend by modern synthetic oils.  Their spindles should never be run on ball bearings as they were not designed for it.

Advantages of the 401 include variable speed control and a high quality high torque motor and decent all round build quality. They last for years if looked after, but they tend to be more of a heritage purchase than a pure performance purchase.  I like them and wouldn't part with mine but never kid myself about it's limitations.  

The other bthing to bear in mind about older deck purchases is that tonearm wiring is also usually shot as are tonearm connections and terminations.  I have serviced more decks of that era with corroded wiring and very poor quality terminations to know it does nothing for the signal.

My advice:  Stick to a well sorted classic (in which case you will need to up your budget considerably) or buy a new high quality budget deck.  Don't go for the bottom rung but several rungs up.  That way you genuinely benefit from better VFM (think in th £250 to £350 range with cartridge).  Compare that to any decent DAC or CDP and its peanuts plus will be easy to sell on if a decent model.  All imho of course.

uglymusic

The 401 figures for me because two of the best TTs I've heard belong to Jim, late of this parish. He has a 401 and a Voyd. They're both brilliant, but in different ways.

Jim's 401 is almost certainly why Alan brought the old beast up.

The relevance, I guess, is that James, Alan and I are digital listeners and Jim's decks have the spot-on timing of great digital. That's something that so many TTs fail on.

However, you ain't going to get either of those decks for £250-£350 :-(

PAC

True David but I have to disagree about this timing thing.  It's one of those hifi urban myths that the 401 "times" better than just about anything.  Timing is down to accurate pitch stability and even the most basic project deck has this when partnered say with the speed control they offer.  Having tested my Gyro's speed stability, it's well below 0.5% mark, certainly low enough to be every bit as speed accurate as the 401, so the old chestnut about timing doesn't apply when comparing with just about any deck using a well designed power supply, decent motor and high inertia platter.  Granted, some cheaper units don't have decent power regulation in all cases and speed can vary with fluctuations in mains voltage, and this is where the 401's variable speed control is an advantage.  No more so than any deck fitted with variable speed control though.  Nice decks though that have stood the test of time, just not the best decks for the money these days if performance is key.

uglymusic

I think we'll have to disagree on this one, mate.

Speed stability on turntables has about as much relation to timing as THD has to the sound of amplifiers ;-)

PAC

I think we shall Dave as I do equate timing to speed stability...no pixie dust or mystical powers are responsible for timing, unless of course we're talking at cross purposes and your definition of timing differs from mine?  

Whatever, it's a fine deck and looks cool too.

uglymusic

Differences in definition could well be there ;-)

Brumjam

Project Debut Carbon for £300is a stunner and for the money the Essential 2 or Debut SE/3 are also worth a look. All come with arms and carts fitted and are factory set-up.

Paul - Vinyl newbie question time: Am I right in thinking I can simply plug the Project turntable into my pre amp (which has a switch for MM or MC) and off I go?  I don't need any other boxes in between?  

Docfoster

No you do not, as long as your amp has a built in phono stage, which an mc/mm switch would certainly imply.
(Obviously you'll need a cart' at the other end...)

Brumjam

Thanks Ben. Cart included with both Project and Rega decks that I'm looking at.

PAC

Project Debut Carbon for £300is a stunner and for the money the Essential 2 or Debut SE/3 are also worth a look. All come with arms and carts fitted and are factory set-up.

Paul - Vinyl newbie question time: Am I right in thinking I can simply plug the Project turntable into my pre amp (which has a switch for MM or MC) and off I go?  I don't need any other boxes in between?  

Sorry

late answering this one

Yes, you are right. Plug and play. For those who don't own phonostages (inbuilt or otherwise) Project also offer a budget deck with an inbuilt MM phonostage, so they try to cater for all.