Should forum charge ?

Colin

I recieved this from another forum site, which I never promote any products, it does show how much attention the owner pays to his forum site.

Do you think charging is fair to the trade ???? when some trader do drag readers and users to the forum and thus the advertising on the site.

"Hi Colin,

How are things? I
hope all is well and that business is good!

Just a quick one to
advise you that, unfortunately, due to continual rising costs every year, which
up until now we have absorbed, we will now have to charge our trade members for
advertising on ******

The charge will be
a flat yearly rate of £50 (as per other forums, such as pfm and Wigwam), which
will provide your business with unlimited advertising in the trade section of
the site, and also in terms of the use of any banners/additional promotional
information, underneath all of your posts on the forum, which can be added at
any time to your profile.

It will further
entitle you to any additional support required, such as ‘Sticky’ threads in the
trade room, where key promotional activity can be collated and highlighted on
one thread, tagged to the top of the trade area, for maximum exposure to
potential customers.



Furthermore, you
can be rest assured that the trade room will always be strictly moderated, in
terms of assuring that all input there from trade members is protected from
‘thread crapping’ (off-topic, unwanted input) from other members, thus leaving
any adverts placed by your company ‘unmolested’, as it were. This allows
whatever merchandise is being advertised full impact to generate sales, for the
benefit of any potential customers.

I trust therefore,
that you will appreciate the commercial reality and need for us now to impose
this small charge and that you will consider it offers great value, when taking
into consideration the size of the audience, worldwide, attracted by any advert
placed on ******, not to mention the 8500+ members we now have registered with
us.

This charge is now
due and should be made via Paypal ‘GIFT’ to: [email protected]

Should you not use
the Paypal system, please advise of how you would like to make payment (BACS or
cheque) and I will send you the information you require, in order to make
payment.

Please also
remember that I can be contacted, via PM or at the above email address, at any
time, should you have any queries regarding your trade account on ******. We
thank you again for your support and wish you the best of success now and in
the future with your business.

Best regards,

****** ****** (site
owner)."

Docfoster

Oh God.
Don't go giving our Lord and Master these sorts of ideas...
Rosam will bleed us all dry.

Colin

Ben I have had now 3 of this type of message, but I never promote anything, are they just short of cash or is it just greed, our friend Dick has not done this so why should the others, and MCRU do promote so maybe yes pay, but as I say I do not.

I was hoping D.R.  had a thought on the reasoning behind it. Mein Furher

Docfoster

It probably is what you'd term "greed". Tho imho that seems somewhat pejorative. I can see that for some trade members (not you) forums provide a contact point with customers, and hence money. I suppose forum owners feel their "middle man" role deserves acknowledgement.

uglymusic

Difficult one, this. As with many things, the situation could be quite complex.

Let's look at the costs of running a forum (please note I'm knackered and may not be remembering everything):

• Hosting - disk space and bandwidth. Bandwidth, in particular, can be a lot of money
• Software/maintenance/support etc - the hosted version of Vanilla with support costs $40 a month upwards
• Advertising - running those pesky ads, refining them for maximum return
• Time - technical and modding

In the case of Chews, Ben and I give our time for free and the ads about cover the hosting. It's a hobby, not a business. It's fun, not a chore. 

If we were a big forum consuming significant bandwidth and time, I can see ad revenue falling far short of the costs, and questions about the nature of the venture coming up. But that's not the case.

Whether the 'trade' members should pay for their access to a forum's members and be allowed to ply their wares unrestrictedly is another matter. Perhaps that kills the independence that may be possible on the Internet, away from the questions about what goes on behind the scenes in magazine publishing.

Docfoster

Agreed Dave. I can only guess at the time you put in here. (I just pop in a couple of times a day to take down Alan's latest nob gags). Your hobbyist attitude does us credit. I am relieved to know that you are out of profit.
My point is that perhaps *in some cases* subscriptions turn parasites into sponsors. Though I agree giving trade free reign to blitz all corners is a bit unsettling.

uglymusic

I should make it clear that we use the free version of Vanilla, not the hosted one.

Alan

The writing style of the letter sent to Col looks familiar enough, as does the implicit belief that the writer is a 'player' in the audio industry.

I can't see why people in the trade can't be treated as the enthusiasts they are, and their enthusiasm & experience shared around. Active promotion on forums isn't as elegant as participation for the hobby's sake, but many in the trade see a need, so I think that identifying people in the trade is a good thing.

But when these same people add value to a forum, yet the owner seeks to charge, it smacks of inadequacy and jealousy, and maybe a need to control people whose opinion is genuinely noteworthy.

In response to Col's question, I think income (which may well be necessary) would be more appropriately raised by other means.

Colin

Hi Alan, 

I agree income in with voluntary contributions would be good, as it is a hobby and we all join in the fun, but trade people do not always come clean about being trade I did, and I hope I never push the project I am  interested in has my job. But I do hope I add a to the forums conversations (even silly ones) with good humor.

So lighted hearted RFC New, Hifi Pig Rules OK, items are good to inform us of what is out there but banner like " Buy Your Blob Sound Audio Here " is not a contribution to the forum space and should be a proper advert, in the right area and not in your face..

A sticky and a non black and white area me thinks, oh coffee time " I drink Audior Coffee it is musical, try it for yourself and wake up with a grin and a tune in your head" 

This make's individual independent reviews by the forum hobbyist another difficult proposition when is it promotion and when is it a hobby. Do we get MI5 looking into all the backgrounds of the user or do we wait until the true evidence presents itself to make a justified conclusion to remove them as spammers?

Is it possible to make a simple set of rule to follow that can be clear who is who and what area will can all operate in?

Then do we display rules and then openly admit to disregarding them because you own the forum.

 

Best Col

Docfoster

I agree with everything there Col.
I suppose forum owners are at liberty to do as they please (within the law). Users are at liberty to make their own judgements accordingly.

Colin

Right on Ben, it up to us were we deposit and collect our nonsense.  :-\"

Docfoster

Dave, btw i meant "out of pocket" above not "out of profit". I'm not a total bastard!

Alan

It looks like we all agree then, which is cool.

As Col says, everything comes out into the open eventually. Traders do not always come clean, but that's rare now & I think most forums do require trade members to identify themselves, which I do agree with. It's the artificial division of 'them & us' which I find distasteful.

uglymusic

I agree with everything there Col.
I suppose forum owners are at liberty to do as they please (within the law). Users are at liberty to make their own judgements accordingly.

What he said - more or less.

uglymusic

Dave, btw i meant "out of pocket" above not "out of profit". I'm not a total bastard!

I thought you probably did.

Colin

Less ? how much less Dave, you want free vinyl and player, they are bigger than ISpats??

uglymusic

It looks like we all agree then, which is cool.

As Col says, everything comes out into the open eventually. Traders do not always come clean, but that's rare now & I think most forums do require trade members to identify themselves, which I do agree with. It's the artificial division of 'them & us' which I find distasteful.

agreement is boring ;-)

When we set up Chews, we deliberately didnt want to flag them and us.

As we remain small, we dont suffer bludgeoning advertising.

i hope that Col and Paul's regular presence here benefits their business through trust in them as people, rather than generic appeals for custom. 

Docfoster

We are not subject to the same commercial input for sure, so it's pretty lonely and windy up here on top of our pedistal. It would be interesting to see how we would feel were the forum to be deluged by commercial interests.
Expertise and the kinds of sporadic informing about new products is fine, indeed enriching (e.g. Colin and Paul), but at the other end of the trade member continuum is endemic marketing.
Drawing the line is unnecessary for chews with our reasonable and self-policing trade members. It would be more tricky were more mercenary and less rounded individuals to turn up.

uglymusic

Many social media professionals would argue that just being here and contributing to the forum is marketing.

PAC

I agree with Col here.

I think we know which forum that the message came from as I received the same one, as I'm guessing has Stu and a few others.  Whilst it was appropriate for me to cough up whatever my feelings on the changes and charges (its fair dinkum as I DO advertise on that forum), it isn't appropriate imho that Col should have to cough up as he doesn't use the forum for commercial gain.  You can contribute and use it for gain and a lot do just that.

In Col's case, I think that just being trade has nothing to do with his status on the other forum and he should be left as a private member just enjoying the forum. As Col says, he never advertises nor uses the trade area, so it can and should be argued that he's not going to pay subs and accepts that he can't advertsie on that forum.  There are journalists there and other trade members some of whom STILL masquerade as private individuals and haven't come clean which I do disagree with as if people knew, then its reasonable to assume that there has to be a vested interest in opinions that they write.

This forum is very different and I hope that myself and other members who clearly are trade, don't abuse the hospitality.  For the most part, Chews members all seem to contribute and I've rarely seen threads from members blatantly advertising wares where they never offer contributions to general banter.

I often ping links to my news page only because I think it often contains information or views that may have interest appeal and not for any direct selling purpose, although I do like to make folk aware of what I'm up to without spamming the heck out of the place (spammers to me are those regularly blitzing forums with ads but never contributing).

Perhaps social media types would say that just contributing is marketing, but that's the thin end of the wedge and could be viewed as an over simplistic psychology which if pursued to the letter could result in rules excluding people indiscriminatingly on no more basis than they are in the trade.  My view is "so what?", if someone has something to say that entertains or is informative, or just joining in with the social banter, then excluding that on the basis of professional marketing psychology is reading into things too much and removing the human element.

Docfoster

I agree with Col here.

I think we know which forum that the message came from as I received the same one, as I'm guessing has Stu and a few others. 

Surprising to see HFS taking this tack.

uglymusic

Perhaps social media types would say that just contributing is marketing, but that's the thin end of the wedge and could be viewed as an over simplistic psychology which if pursued to the letter could result in rules excluding people indiscriminatingly on no more basis than they are in the trade.  My view is "so what?", if someone has something to say that entertains or is informative, or just joining in with the social banter, then excluding that on the basis of professional marketing psychology is reading into things too much and removing the human element.

These days marketing is much broader than, say, advertising or PR. Social media professionals stress building relationships. People buy from people, they say.

PAC

Perhaps social media types would say that just contributing is marketing, but that's the thin end of the wedge and could be viewed as an over simplistic psychology which if pursued to the letter could result in rules excluding people indiscriminatingly on no more basis than they are in the trade.  My view is "so what?", if someone has something to say that entertains or is informative, or just joining in with the social banter, then excluding that on the basis of professional marketing psychology is reading into things too much and removing the human element.

These days marketing is much broader than, say, advertising or PR. Social media professionals stress building relationships. People buy from people, they say.

Then they're stating the obvious  )

If marketing includes being an ambassador for one's business and treating people with respect, being helpful and engaging with people, then there's hardly anything wrong in that.  People buy mostly because they want or need something and not because people are nice to them.  Of course, they're more likely to buy from those they like, but there's nothing new in that.  What matters more to people these days I've found is continued good customer service.  In hifi especially, the trend is less to search out bottom line and instead to search out reliable supply and reliable helpful dealers who offer a "good buying experience" and continued customer supprort.  I'd be the same in terms of contribution to forums whether or not I was in the trade.  There's a few like me (Col for one), and I enjoy the friendly banter here especially  

Colin

"There's a few like me (Col for one), and I enjoy the friendly banter here especially   - "

Friendly banter from this forum !, I get hate mail from these forums, saying " I hate this and that" but it is normally on another Dais based forum.

And to be honest I have never sold anything via any forum, TQ kit has to be bought from a KOG dealer or a overseas dealer. So not point me promoting TQ kit on forums. Besides I rather hear you all here talk about your kits, and demolition of flats etc.

:bz

Alan

"There's a few like me (Col for one), pand I enjoy the friendly banter here especially   - "

Friendly banter from this forum !, I get hate mail from these forums, saying " I hate this and that" but it is normally on another Dais based forum.

And to be honest I have never sold anything via any forum, TQ kit has to be bought from a KOG dealer or a overseas dealer. So not point me promoting TQ kit on forums. Besides I rather hear you all here talk about your kits, and demolition of flats etc.

:bz

I wonder if forums aren't sometimes more trouble than they're worth, for those in the trade!

Col, you don't ever self promote, you just love what you do and talk enthusiastically about it. That's always welcome, from anyone who makes things. I'm loving Paul's speaker threads at the moment for the exact same reason. I'm also glad you like hearing about our (users) kit & experiences, I wouldn't want you or other members of the trade feeling hounded or pressured like on some forums - this is a HiFi community for everyone to enjoy.

Here's one for you: I had an old HiFi buddy around at the weekend, he is the most lovely man, and was a moderately successful pro musician in the '60s. He loves his music - even more since going blind. He had a good feel of my speakers, and my little SECA (leave it, Ben!), and was then rather impressed - to put it mildly - by the sounds we enjoyed. We played all sorts of electronica, lots of acoustic material, some Latin jazz, and da blues. His comments afterward were about the tone, the sweetness of the system, but also the detail and attack in the treble. His gast was also flabberred by the depth of bass, and the broad solid 3D imaging, despite the speakers being 13 feet apart.

So another convert to SECA magic with Royds. Good work, Col!

uglymusic

Oh yes!