Building a computer for audio - choices.

Alan

The wind has changed. As have my ideas and plans. This week I have had a rotten cold, so much time has been wasted spent reading and researching computer audio. I started (where I left off a few years back) at Computer Audiophile, but soon realised it is very limited indeed in it's scope and interests (still great for all things Mac though). I've now worked through Tirna Hifi and JPlay, haven't started on Audiostream yet.

I've also been emailing Mark from Itemaudio this week, who now has an impressive backlog of emails charting the ignorance curve of an amateur with too much time on his hands. My plans have evolved thus: <Mac > Intel NUC prebuilt > NUC customised & built my me > Mini ITX prebuilt > Sod it, I'll get a Mac mini > seriously planning a mini itx build>.

So, that's where I am now. This is what I have to accomplish:

• Excellent computer audio over USB, whether into my current DAC or a future one (maybe DSD capable)
• Software - nice user interface via tablet etc, easy to use system for whole family
• Capable of playing full HD without glitches through TV, possible 3D in future - who knows?
• Capable of being used by family & children for internet, email, skype, PC games (minecraft etc)

Because I need this capability, I can't follow the normal route of picking energy efficient, low power processors (which are conveniently cheaper), so absolute performance will not be the goal here. But I don't want anybody to know that when the listen to it! I hope to blow my previous (excellent) Mac mini into the weeds.

Alan

As the plan to build a Mini ITX system has survived over thirty hours, I'll take the idea seriously.

A lot of 'audio optimising' seems to be possible without going all 'boutique' and expensive - a good starting point. My budget is going to be 'tight, but do-able'. There will always be better.

For instance, I could start with a Gigabyte mobo with USB ports designed to be optimal for audio transfer to DAC, £70. Then, a capable but cheap processor which could be underclocked (because audio isn't too hard, after all). This will probably draw little power so can be passively cooled.

Needs an SSD & loadsa RAM, well that's just standard now.

Use something like the SuperFlower off the shelf PC power supply, which appears to excellent in all respects - for multi rail power supplies, therefore doing away with the pico board altogether.

At this point, no extra money has really been spent (with the exception of an overspecified PS), just careful component choice. Just needs some software and it's good to go. From the hardware POV it's far closer to what I'd want for audio than my Mac mini ever was, and it's cost the same. Plus I've learned a lot and had fun

I could then add dedicated PCIe USB card with independent power at my leisure, to see if it's worthwhile. Maybe even a SATA filter?

Dan

Seems like u have got it's used there Alan.
A SOTM USB board at a later date would no doubt be an improvement, a SATA II SSD does a better job for music, I would suggest running one of these separately to dual boot the machine, having ur configs and a stripped down OS ready that the family doesn't use, dedicated just to ur music software and have the drive separately powered and even run isolated into firewire using an 800 to 400 cable if ur mono supports it, if not just and maybe a better idea (run past Mark) put ur SSD in an aluminium caddy and cover it with emi cloth and run it direct SATA to the board (data only) and powered externally with a DC to sata cable.

Alan

Something close to my needs though, costs a little more. This is an initial shopping list, the ideal items are either too expensive, not available to the public, or unsuitable for graphics.

Streacom FC8 EVO fanless case, £120

Gigabyte GA H87N WiFi, £80

Intel i5 1150, 4570T processor, £145

SSD & RAM - about £70

Superflower 80+ Gold 750W power supply, £100  (Is this the right one, Mark?)

EMI paper & thermal paste £50?

Paul Pang Audio modified USB card with new clocks, £80.

This gets me to within £100 of my limit, but I have to think about software licenses, and maybe an external Blueray drive.

The only hitch so far is the fancy PS won't fit the Streacom case, so an alternative case is being mooted. I could use my old mini ITC case to start, and my old cooler tower I used in the Mac. Maybe even the supplied cooler & fan if such comes with the processor and it's enough. Otherwise, I shall have to wait until a proper case can be sorted out.

I can get a W7 64bit ISO to get me going, but I'm not a linux expert. I suspect I'll be using a middle of the road OS.

Alan

If the new case allows it, I may put independantly powered HDDs inside the chassis (wrapped in EMI cloth), and have everything local rather than networked. The whole thing could function as a NAS day to day via on board wireless. There are loads of SATA connections on the MoBo for drives.


The whole JRiver/JPlay whatever can be safely sidelined into a separate user account while the family uses the excellent looking XBMC.

Alan

This Superflower PS is interesting. If Mark doesn't explain it, I will soon.

Dan

Yeah the Paul Pang looks very good indeed.
He does a nice mini Red sata cable also.

What EMI paper have u seen then?

Are u using on board graphics?

Dan

U can also run the Openlec version of XBMC feom a USB stick and select it on start up, it runs very quickly this way, I was doing this with my old windows machine instead of having it on the OS drive, u only need a 4gb.

Alan

Yes, I'll be using built in graphics (Intel HD4600). I wanted HD5000, but it's only available on mobile processors (which I spent ages reading about before I learned the public cannot buy them), or higher power (84W) processors. I'm not worried about cooling, but I'd imagine a processor with lower TDP will be better (happy to be proved wrong).

I really haven't looked into the EMI paper yet, I don't even know the critical areas to pay attention to.There is plenty of reading yet to do.

I forgot to mention I still have a SOtM SATA filter from before, which will be used again.

Dan

There isn't really much choice with the EMI stuff. Mark gets the 3m material sheeting.
I'd line the case, the drives and the ram.

If the PSU is internal, that also.

I think the lower spec chips are ideal at where we are these days, more than powerful enough for everything except extreme gaming, the HD4600 is more than enough either.

ItemAudio

Unfortunately, locking into the better PSU does lock you out of Streacom. No worries, though: there are some nice cases suitable for ATX builds. I like the Fractal Node 805 and Silverstone Grandia 04, or could push the boat out with the slightly bonkers Silverstone CW02:
http://www.akortek.org/assets/sst-cw02_icresim.jpg

For starters, I'd definitely go for the B85N motherboard with filtered USB output. This gets you half way to the PPA card. There are lots of new PCIe-based USB audio developments in the pipeline that might make it prudent to hang fire on that decision . . .

Again, for starters, I'd strongly recommend for an XBMC-based Linux build: they're relatively painless these days and - as you say - look/work as well as an Apple product. We'll have a disk image for XBMC on the T1 that is completely painless, providing you stick to the recommended hardware configuration. Plug and play.

These three money-savers (cheaper case, cheaper USB and free software) should liberate more money to spend on the DAC, which will give you the best bang-for-buck. Then, once you've got the DAC, you can discover which USB card it prefers. Unfortunately, we're seeing quite a lot of variation in this regard: for instance, some customers find that DACs with opto-isolation like the Wyred 4 Sound, don't need the opto-isolation of the Adnaco card as much as they benefit from the clock upgrade of the SoTM or JCAT cards. It's quite important to choose the DAC before the USB card, reserving budget for it if necessary.

Alan

That's an unexpected development, and looks to be quite important.

Your point about new PCIe USB products coming is well taken. B85N it (probably) is.

Can I invite some DAC suggestions then? Even with the possible sale of the Young + PS, I'd not have much more than £750 to throw at it. To be clear, I have never really found fault with the Young, but if I were to change I'd really want to gain DSD capability.

Alan

Again, for starters, I'd strongly recommend for an XBMC-based Linux build: they're relatively painless these days and - as you say - look/work as well as an Apple product. We'll have a disk image for XBMC on the T1 that is completely painless, providing you stick to the recommended hardware configuration. Plug and play.

Thinking about software for a moment, what audio software is available for linux, or are you suggesting XBMC for this also?

Edit - I just re-read the recipe (I didn't realise how close I was getting to the T1 recipe) and saw recommendation for Volumino & Daphile.

Alan

I have a query concerning storage if anyone would like to chip in?

I have files on a QNAP NAS, connected via switch & CAT6 cables. I read that onboard storage can be a better solution than network. Ought I to be considering this?

I have always used a small SDD for the OS and planned to continue. Would an onboard spinning HDD (even with a SATA filter & it's own power) offer an advantage in your view?

ItemAudio

If you already have a NAS, use it - especially if the library is > 1Tb. However, on-board storage is cheaper and tends to sound better. If you can afford to put it all in solid state, so much the better.

XBMC works pretty well for everything - even audio. If you plan to use it for more than audio, you'll need something very much like it.Try XBMCBuntu/openelec.

Re: DACs: plenty of choice, but £750 is a weird one: there just aren't many converters at that price. Lots of good stuff a bit cheaper, and a bit more.

Alan

OK. Plan A was to leave the open the future possibility of on board storage, so I stick with that.

I am totally out on a limb here, but I could try the linux - XBMCBuntu. Version 13 'Gotham' looks very usable, whether on windows or linux.

(M2Tech never released a linux driver IIRC, but someone put one together somewhere).

DAC choices - well that wasn't even on the radar until a few hours ago. I'm not sure how seriously it is now, but I'll be happy to seriously consider it once the computer is up & running.

Alan

Processor question now:

I was going with the i5 4570T on amazon for £145, but most of you know this game better than I do - is it the right choice for what I want? It's actually a dual core, there is a quad core equivalent for £5 less (the S version), but it puts out 65W as opposed to 35W. How important is TDP relating to quality? I had assumed lower is better.

ItemAudio

Weeeeelll . . . The T's looking appealing on paper, but in reality seem not to run much cooler/cleaner than the regular versions. Currently, processors have hit a bit of a wall under 22nm fab with respect to cycle speed: you'll notice that everything runs in the high-twos to threes. 'Faster' just means 'more cores'. If you want cooler, or less thirsty, just underclock. Having said that - remember you have a mighty 750W on tap . . .

Your requirement is video, though, as well as audio - right?

For audio, you only need dual Pentium, unless you're resampling to DSD and want to do it really well. However, for perspective, a quadcore resampling to DSD128 or even DSD256 is still only humming along at 10-15% and the humble Pentium is still quote 'capable' - exerting itself only around 40-50%. It's just that the more powerful quadcore sounds a teensy bit better.

For video, I'm assuming you want on-die graphics. That's your main reason to go i5: any of the entry level processors have HD4600 which is OK for 1080p. Really, if you need to ramp up the frame rate beyond that, you're fundamentally in the realm of dedicated graphics cards. Unless you did a NUC build with HD5000 . . .? Mwoohaha!

Dan

For audio Qlan look into MPD there is a great app for it also.
Regarded by many as one of the best.

uglymusic

Come on Alan, tell us your current thinking!

We need to know 

:-W

Alan

Current thinking: When will the damned cheque clear...?

Case: Use the old tatty one for a month or two, something awaits me in the future...
 
RAM: I bought this nearly new: 2 Kingston 8 GB DDR3L – 1600 CL9 240 pin UDIMM non ECC, LoVo 1,35 V XMP (KHX16LC9K2/16X)

Mark's new Item kit will be my most likely course, I guess I need to chat with Mark first.

I am thinking the Gigabyte B85N motherboard with any old i5 processor (for integrated graphics). I have a cooler tower already, but someone has informed me the 'Haswell' processors will be happy with the stock cooler (disconnected fan) if the are underclocked. I'm willing to give this a go.

Leadex Superflower PSU

SSD - whatever is recommended (I was looking at Samsung Evo)

SATA filter (already have this)

This is not exactly a hard-core dedicated machine, but it ought to be better than my previous heavily modded Mac straight away by virtue of the multiple split power rails (which although are SMPS are very high quality, the Mac wasn't any of those things), and a motherboard which has factory fitted USB for audio capability.

I will install a dedicated USB PCIe card later, I am reliably informed there are new developments coming later this year. Mark suggests matching the USB card to the DAC by audition, which I hope he will facilitate for me... Apparently the galvanic isolation method used on the USB input can affect which USB card works best with that particular DAC. I'll be interested to find out for myself. As near as I can find out out, the Young's galvanic isolation is transformer based rather than opto, which indicates the expensive Adnaco SB3 might suit it best (I was hoping the cheaper Paul Pang Audio card would be the one - will have to see).

uglymusic

You are getting pretty deeply into this, aren't you?

Are you going for Windoze or the guy with the security blanket?

Alan

By going with Mark's Item kit, I can benefit from his tweakery and nerdery as he develops OS and BIOS tweaks (which are specific to the motherboard). Also, he on the end of a phone should I mess up, he'll be familiar with the kit.

I hope also to go all linear power some time, and to get all on board storage when big SSDs are cheaper.

Home use for TV, films etc will be via an external USB blue-ray disc reader, I want to keep optical drives out of the system.

uglymusic

Looking forward to hearing it against the Mac mini that's about to find itself in my Big Rig.

ItemAudio

By going with Mark's Item kit, I can benefit from his tweakery and nerdery as he develops OS and BIOS tweaks (which are specific to the motherboard). Also, he on the end of a phone should I mess up, he'll be familiar with the kit.

I feel bad about encouraging people too strongly to stick with the recipe and not change bits, but it's not just egomania: as you said, I will be developing at least two different plug-and-play optimised operating systems specific to this board - and these will be updated, as the third generation T1 was. For instance, I published a tweak over Christmas that reduced boot up to 11 seconds from cold to JRiver, and streamlined the OS further.

There's also good reason to stick with that power supply: we'll be developing a couple of upgrades specific to the Leadex (isolation transformers and filters) that will use the SuperFlower's proprietary 9-pin connectors.

If you swap in other parts, it kills the upgrade path. Also, right now, that motherboard and PSU is the best performing combination for audio at that price. There's no reason not to use it!