Yes, the TOCA is 20 Watts, though as my speakers are 4ohms (ish) I think it's more than that. Paul (Quickie) did tell me what it would be into 4 ohms, but I can't remember (... I think 38 Watts?) I can't recall what the general specs are for the One4 kit amp. I think Col said last week that it would be slightly more than 20 Watts, but I don't know what it is into 4 ohms. It *sounds* slightly more punchy, and probably louder overall than the TOCA in my set up.
Odd stuff afoot. Contrary to my previous post about the One4 amp having a richer midrange than the TOCA, now what I'm hearing would lead me to write the opposite... I'm f*cked if I know what I think. Best discount my ramblings altogether... Bass on the One4 remains unbelievably impactful, as is the "shape of the percussive event" (Rosam aka Uglymusic). Will be returning the TOCA to the system over the weekend and will assess the difference. Especially with regard to the midrange!!! (Am expecting a close call overall.)
Righto, After a week of the One4 amp I've put the TOCA back in to see how things are comparing. (I haven't had the sub on at all in this time to keep the comparisons as Vanilla as possible.) As stated previously, I don't hear the 2 amps as being poles apart. Both are very special class A creations. I love them both. Inevitably comparisons are to some degree inherently preferential. But, I want to avoid being crictical of either amp though, as both are fantastic and I will certainly be keeping both. I got the impression that Colin firmly feels that the One4 amp is the best he has produced; that it is superior to the TQ Iridium, which he in turn considers as being superior to the TOCA design. He really buzzed with excitement when we were listening to my repaired Won4 in his workshop. A joy to behold. :-) To my ears the main comparative differences between the TOCA and the One4 are: 1. The One4 has better separation of sounds. Everything is cleanly honed. In relative terms the TOCA sounds a tiny bit more smudged at the edges. 2. The TOCA is smoother. This may be the same thing as, or at least related to, point 1. I'm not sure. In my system, and in relation to the TOCA, the One4 can sound slightly more brittle in the upper midrange. Not brittle in absolute terms you understand, simply in comparison to the TOCA. It is a difference that is mainly noticeable on vocals (e.g. when watching movies). 3. The One4 has a more impressive bass. It sounds somewhat deeper, more impactful and more controlled. This may also be related to point 1. In any event, the TOCA is absolutely no slouch when it comes to bass. Again, all of these differences are marginal. 4. In my system the Won4 amp *sounds* louder. (More powerful?) 5. I am personally finding the TOCA slightly more beguiling and more listenable over time. For my tastes, the silky midrange is the clincher. To my ears, the way the TOCA does vocals is quite remarkable. I suspect that the TOCA will remain in the main system, with the Won4 becoming the hub for a high-calibre second system. I can't overstate that both of these amps are top notch. I used to do a lot of fiddling with my system before I discovered the Wonfor Class A sound. These days I do no fiddling. (Except, the comparing of different types of Wonfor Class A!) Based on my own experience, I find it hard to imagine that I will ever migrate away from Colin's designs. Keep up the good work, sir!
Mark, Thanks. To be honest it makes me feel part of something excellent, elitist and exclusive. I listen to other amps and I think "Not bad... but it's no Wonfor Class-A". I don't think there's a feeling of arrogance, just of having access to something special.
Colin, Define "unbiased"...! B-) Good news on the way for Justin. Is it the Modushop case...?
Well is was a single ended class a, and not biased to be A/B or even "T", and that just what I am about to have started it over a hour ago and got sidetracked again, yes with new MOSFETS really big ones.
I just nearly dropped the contents of my colon when I was having my first proper blast with the Green God (Yin and Yang) just now. A huge electronic bass transient that I knew was coming nearly pushed me out into the back garden.
I said to Colin on Saturday how the transients were amazing. And they are.
Well as noone else has done a comparison of amp vs amp + psu boards i'll have a try. I finished adding the psu boards to the existing amp build (see other thread) and have been giving it a listen before trying to get my thoughts down on paper. A direct comparison is hard because of the nearly two week gap between fitting the psu board. However, from my previous ramblings, i felt that the SECA amp was very good across the midrange but was a little uncontrolled in the bass department and perhaps a little short of extension at the top (compared to my AN OTO SE). So a very good second system amp.
Along with the addition of the PSU boards i changed the input coupling cap from a 10p cheapie to a vastly more expensive (£1.10) Elna silmic np, because it was niggling me. So with those changes the newly equipped amp has become my main amp. I probably won't move the AN OTO on as it's a great amp, but the SECA opens up the music more, the bass has been improved and reaches deeper but much more controlled, although i did have to adjust my speaker placement to accomodate this. the sounds is much more open too, and the treble id more extended and allows those 'sparkling' moments such as cymbal shimmer for want of a better example. I'm very pleased with it, and it's still early days so enjoying listening to old music with new details being discovered. it's not just the odd ooh, i didn't hear that before, it's more like discovering new deeper basslines that underpin even well known tracks.
That's my rambles to date, but in summary, it's a addition well worth having and has taken the SECA from good second system amp to main amp.
They certainly did in my experience! Great quality from a £500 ish build this is all still only being fed from a pot in a box so a better pre may improve things further. There might even be improvements if Col comes up with any! It's worth adding that I used the components from the modified build I.e two FET's pet amp board.
I like the way they are fixed to the heat sink Colin. How or what have you used to fixed the other end of the boards from the aluminium to the heat sinks?
I have not had the time to alter my amps to be able to switch between AMP and PSU+AMP, however I have just ordered a couple of DPDT 16amp switches which should do the trick. Hopefully I can make the comparison next week.
At long last, after the C4 component has been removed from both the circuit boards in the One4, I've got a chance to listen properly to what the effects are. The One4 has found its way back into the main system. Current playing this:
First impression is that "Oh yes, there's that ludicrously impressive bass again...!" :-) Secondly though, the removal of that tiny little P4 component from each channel's circuit board appears to have produced the "sweet guts" effect that Colin predicted. At least, AFAIC it has added even greater "silky smoothness" (the way I worded what I'm referring to in previous posts in this thread) to the sound. This obliteration of any grain is especially evident in the upper midrange and higher frequencies (e.g. the snare of a snare drum, cymbals, etc.,...). It is the smoothness of the sound that is the main attraction for me of Colin's amps. Comparing directly to the TOCA, I would say that my perception is that the TOCA places ever so slighty more emphasis on the midrange relatively speaking than does the One4. Possibly the One4 is more realistic in this regard. The separation of sounds (possibly linked to perceived degree of midrange emphasis) I'm hearing as being better on the One4. The removal of C4 has certainly placed their respective smoothnesses on a par, or at least very close to. Previously, and as posted above, I felt that the TOCA had the decisive advantage in this regard. And to re-stress the bass on the One4 is ridiculously good. I am not listening with my 18 inch sub on at the moment, but I'm thinking that the One4 almost renders that beast redundant. (Almost ) I'll have to keep swapping back and forth to see whether my ultimate preference is for the TOCA or the One4. I wouldn't have thought that tiny midrange differences are so important to me! Ultimately though, if you have a One4, make sure you rip out that little C4 bugger! Thanks for communicating your continuing R&D findings to us Colin! And of course, thanks again for these superb designs. ^:)^
Hmmm. Interesting. Spent about 2 hours with the One4 now, currently:
...and I'm feeling like I don't want to have a hifi-swapping kind of an afternoon, but rather a listening to music afternoon... Basically I'm struggling the fault the One4. Feeling a bit disloyal to the TOCA now... Damn my subjective perceptions...
Have wanted to to a bit of work on my smaller speakers, the Goodmans RB20 this afternoon. (These usually front-up the system in the den, fed by the One4.) Speaker work all done now, and have got those plugged in to the main system in the lounge (with the One4, so in fact, not a lot of the main system left plugged in right now! ). Amazing how much grip and bass the One4 exerts over the smaller speakers. Obviously a less huge and impressive sound than with the RFC-Goodmans Goodwoods, but very very pleasing never the less. The sound is impressively chunky, but clean as a whistle. :-)
Don't mean to gloat, but I'm having a great afternoon. Have got a decent amount of work done, but have had a brilliant time going through amp / speaker / percussion combinations too. I felt compelled to post this to convey something of the mood here right now...
Comments
I can't recall what the general specs are for the One4 kit amp. I think Col said last week that it would be slightly more than 20 Watts, but I don't know what it is into 4 ohms. It *sounds* slightly more punchy, and probably louder overall than the TOCA in my set up.
:P
38 into 4... Similar to the TOCA then...
Contrary to my previous post about the One4 amp having a richer midrange than the TOCA, now what I'm hearing would lead me to write the opposite...
I'm f*cked if I know what I think. Best discount my ramblings altogether...
Bass on the One4 remains unbelievably impactful, as is the "shape of the percussive event" (Rosam aka Uglymusic).
Will be returning the TOCA to the system over the weekend and will assess the difference. Especially with regard to the midrange!!!
(Am expecting a close call overall.)
After a week of the One4 amp I've put the TOCA back in to see how things are comparing. (I haven't had the sub on at all in this time to keep the comparisons as Vanilla as possible.)
As stated previously, I don't hear the 2 amps as being poles apart. Both are very special class A creations. I love them both.
Inevitably comparisons are to some degree inherently preferential. But, I want to avoid being crictical of either amp though, as both are fantastic and I will certainly be keeping both.
I got the impression that Colin firmly feels that the One4 amp is the best he has produced; that it is superior to the TQ Iridium, which he in turn considers as being superior to the TOCA design. He really buzzed with excitement when we were listening to my repaired Won4 in his workshop. A joy to behold. :-)
To my ears the main comparative differences between the TOCA and the One4 are:
1. The One4 has better separation of sounds. Everything is cleanly honed. In relative terms the TOCA sounds a tiny bit more smudged at the edges.
2. The TOCA is smoother. This may be the same thing as, or at least related to, point 1. I'm not sure. In my system, and in relation to the TOCA, the One4 can sound slightly more brittle in the upper midrange. Not brittle in absolute terms you understand, simply in comparison to the TOCA. It is a difference that is mainly noticeable on vocals (e.g. when watching movies).
3. The One4 has a more impressive bass. It sounds somewhat deeper, more impactful and more controlled. This may also be related to point 1. In any event, the TOCA is absolutely no slouch when it comes to bass. Again, all of these differences are marginal.
4. In my system the Won4 amp *sounds* louder. (More powerful?)
5. I am personally finding the TOCA slightly more beguiling and more listenable over time. For my tastes, the silky midrange is the clincher. To my ears, the way the TOCA does vocals is quite remarkable.
I suspect that the TOCA will remain in the main system, with the Won4 becoming the hub for a high-calibre second system.
I can't overstate that both of these amps are top notch. I used to do a lot of fiddling with my system before I discovered the Wonfor Class A sound. These days I do no fiddling. (Except, the comparing of different types of Wonfor Class A!) Based on my own experience, I find it hard to imagine that I will ever migrate away from Colin's designs. Keep up the good work, sir!
Thanks. To be honest it makes me feel part of something excellent, elitist and exclusive. I listen to other amps and I think "Not bad... but it's no Wonfor Class-A". I don't think there's a feeling of arrogance, just of having access to something special.
Colin,
Define "unbiased"...! B-)
Good news on the way for Justin. Is it the Modushop case...?
Here's the crazy old bint attending to her hoard...
No. I my amp doesn't have the power supply boards. I'm imagining they make a real difference. :-)
So they do make a (significant) difference. Thanks for your write up of your experiences there.
=D>
Colin, the boards look nice side by side like that. Will be interesting to get your A-B views when you've built and listened to this...
8->
It's on the wish-list.
Seriously Col, are there any plans for a pcb for your line level pre, before I contemplate building it on tag board?
The One4 has found its way back into the main system.
Current playing this:
First impression is that "Oh yes, there's that ludicrously impressive bass again...!" :-)
Secondly though, the removal of that tiny little P4 component from each channel's circuit board appears to have produced the "sweet guts" effect that Colin predicted. At least, AFAIC it has added even greater "silky smoothness" (the way I worded what I'm referring to in previous posts in this thread) to the sound. This obliteration of any grain is especially evident in the upper midrange and higher frequencies (e.g. the snare of a snare drum, cymbals, etc.,...). It is the smoothness of the sound that is the main attraction for me of Colin's amps.
Comparing directly to the TOCA, I would say that my perception is that the TOCA places ever so slighty more emphasis on the midrange relatively speaking than does the One4. Possibly the One4 is more realistic in this regard. The separation of sounds (possibly linked to perceived degree of midrange emphasis) I'm hearing as being better on the One4.
The removal of C4 has certainly placed their respective smoothnesses on a par, or at least very close to. Previously, and as posted above, I felt that the TOCA had the decisive advantage in this regard.
And to re-stress the bass on the One4 is ridiculously good. I am not listening with my 18 inch sub on at the moment, but I'm thinking that the One4 almost renders that beast redundant. (Almost
I'll have to keep swapping back and forth to see whether my ultimate preference is for the TOCA or the One4. I wouldn't have thought that tiny midrange differences are so important to me!
Ultimately though, if you have a One4, make sure you rip out that little C4 bugger! Thanks for communicating your continuing R&D findings to us Colin! And of course, thanks again for these superb designs.
^:)^
Interesting.
Spent about 2 hours with the One4 now, currently:
...and I'm feeling like I don't want to have a hifi-swapping kind of an afternoon, but rather a listening to music afternoon...
Basically I'm struggling the fault the One4. Feeling a bit disloyal to the TOCA now...
Damn my subjective perceptions...
[Docfoster edit: Eek. I feel embarrassed. Have corrected my post. Thanks for that Col'.]
May be I'll start hacking out most of the other components too. See if I can improve things further...
Have got a decent amount of work done, but have had a brilliant time going through amp / speaker / percussion combinations too.
I felt compelled to post this to convey something of the mood here right now...
(Current music: Black Grape)
"System Selfies"