Speaker cable

farout

Hi folks, a simple bur probly been asked a million times before but i cant find an answer. Here we go i'm using van damme speaker cable for my speakers,is it worth spending out on some cable with a big well know name on it but with a budget quite low budget or is the big name speaker cable blurb a load of old bollocks and would just be paying for a name? Should i stick with what i have They use van damme in recording studio's so cant be that bad or have i got it all completly wrong?

Docfoster

Which van damme is it...?
I've got a soft spot for them. Had some D102 mk3 inteconnects a long time ago. And some speaker cable, but I can't remember its name...
I found NVA LS5 and LS6 to be good value. A little uncomfortable / contaminated recommending those due to my personal dislike of NVA's owner, but they are good cables and good value.
I found Colin's TQ Ultrablack to be several steps up from those NVA ones, but TQ UBs are very pricey (tho if you can get a SH pair (as I was fortunate to do) that might be fine). Again of course, some of the personalities involved with that brand mean that recommending them leaves a nasty taste in the mouth, but the truth is that SQ-wise, the UBs are fantastico. Hopefully Colin may have some new designs slipping out of his sleeve at some point that'll mean that to enjoy his cables one does not have to pay the price of a guilty conscience...

)
(EDIT - why are all my smilies coming out wrong...?)

farout

It's the 4mm UP-LCOFC ,so do the bigger names make a big difference? Will they be clearer more open? Tbh i cant really get my head around it. Obviously bell wire is crap but a jump from van damme to something that is like £10-£100 and more£££'s per meter would there really be a massive difference?

Docfoster

Sounds like you're looking for a "no".
You're feeling sceptical about the possibility of the extra outlay yielding proportionate improvements, and want to avoid feeling tricked if you invest and are disappointed.
...And yet a part of you feels tempted...

I don't know the Van Damme cable you mention.
What chance of you of getting some cable on loan from somewhere? Where do you live?

[Edit - what IS going on with my smileys...? Is it Firefox...?]

farout

Your smileys
)

Just want to make sure that an out lay on speaker cable is justifiable yes im tempted but sceptical.  I use Firefox by the way.  That's weird my smiley's not coming out right either 

PAC

The name on the cable doesn't matter and is no guarantee of a cable having the synergy you need for your circuit.

What does matter is whether it has the geometry and specification needed to work well.

Not all speaker cables are equal and most certainly there will be differences in how your system sounds depending upon what you chose.

However (isn't there always one?)  what most people miss completely when selecting cable is that reviews count for nothing, but a simple understanding of your system's circuit counts for everything!  Why do I keep banging on about "circuit?"

Simples:  think of the effect on any circuit of altering either capacitance, inductance or impedance (one or more of them) and you can expect to see that the circuit characteristics have been altered.  How will this impact on what you hear?

Well, the output circuit is made up of your amplifier, your loudspeakers and the wire connecting them. Consider it all as part of ONE circuit.  If your cable lengths are very long, say 8m plus per side, then things like loop resistance of your cable matters.  If longer still, say more than 10m per side, then high capacitance or inductance can matter too as it will affect frequency response.

Next, how stable is the amplifier output design as adding lots of capacitance to the output of some can make them unstable and this can be heard.  If using a valve amp with highish output impedance, damping factor becomes critical and adding even a little impedance will affect damping factor hence affect bass control quite a lot.

So, no, it's not a lot of old codswallop, but there are simple rules of thumb.  Keep loop resistance low, avoid reactive geometries such as braided types of cable or other very high capacitance cables and look at where the cable is sourced.  Much of this claimed high quality dirt cheap OFC multi-strand is actually chinese sourced, of very poor quality and contains lots of impurities or is an alloy of materials and will be audibly inferior to a genuine high quality pure copper cable.

Van Damme make some very good budget cable, but yes, they can be bettered.  You won't necessarily better them at their respective budgets though.  Whether you decide to upgrade speaker cable depends on the rest of your system and on your budget.  for short runs, it's probably as good as most systems need, but as runs get a little longer, those L,C,R effects increase hence the audibility of sonic differences increases.

uglymusic

@farout There are no absolutes in hi-fi.

I have some very expensive cables in my system and I can't believe how much difference they make. 

You need to listen and make sure you feel the improvement (if any) is worth the outlay.

I wonder what Colin has to say, as a cable designer?

Docfoster

Kudos to Paul fot writing a lengthy reply
and not once mentioning his own very well regarded RFC cables (that oddly i've never tried).

AntiCrap

Ben you should. Good kit heard some a few weeks ago.

Boomer

QED 79 STRAND, cheap as chips and very good.

PAC

...and can be easily bettered for not a lot more ;-)

Recommendations cannot follow really unless one knows the lengths in question and the circuits into which the cable is to be used.

Speaker minimum impedance, amplifier type and cable lengths really are the minimum info needed.

Cable should offer NO MORE than 5% loop resistance of the minimum speaker impedance, preferably less.  That equates to the DC resistance of twice the distance to each speaker (ie loop impedance is the resistance for the length of the signal travels to AND back from the speaker from the amplifier).  Characteristic impedance is usually also used in the calcs, but unless the cable is some weird geometry with high capacitance, or very thin indeed, the DCR is usually the governing factor in total loop resistance.

Nowt wrong with VanDamme

Boomer

I have a few cables here, such as Naim NAC A2, Audioquest FLX/Slip 14/4, QED Signature revelation, QED 79 Strand and a few other unknown makes. The 79 strand seem to be pretty good in my book, but that's just me. I also have had NVA LS6, but found it only worked well with NVA kit. All the different cables I've owned do have different sound signatures but many people believe that cables make no difference. They definetly do to my ears and some are very much different.

Never tried vandamme

PAC

Cables do make a difference as they're part of a circuit and change a circuit component, you may also change LCR products of that circuit which may of course have an impact on sound.  All I was pointing out is that for speaker cables, geometry and loop resistance are by far the most significant factors for a majority of amp/speaker systems, the geometry being especially important where amps may be poorly engineered and have to rely on speaker cables to prevent output stage oscillation or instability by providing a degree of inductance to damp the output.

AntiCrap

Merry Christmas and have a Happy New Year, This might help.

TQ cables are made by http://www.conceptcables.com/ in Blandford Forum Dorset, at the time I started the company with my designs the cost for example for TQ Black was £1.50M, the Blue was in fact a test tool to check the moulding tool. The UB was £5.00/M and the Graphite was made from scrap Green and UB and sleeved this was only to be used in house but the sale/greed dept thought or not as it is scrap and thus a tax loss lets recycle and make loads of money. So if anybody wants cable made to your spec and to be made in the UK talk to John Kewley the MD of CC, have fun.

Boomer

PAC said:

Cables do make a difference as they're part of a circuit and change a circuit component, you may also change LCR products of that circuit which may of course have an impact on sound.  All I was pointing out is that for speaker cables, geometry and loop resistance are by far the most significant factors for a majority of amp/speaker systems, the geometry being especially important where amps may be poorly engineered and have to rely on speaker cables to prevent output stage oscillation or instability by providing a degree of inductance to damp the output.

I completely believe you, its slightly above me though, I am in the process of reading all about electronics and trying to get my head around it all. I can tell you that cables make a diffrence though.

Boomer

Merry Christmas and have a Happy New Year, This might help.

TQ cables are made by http://www.conceptcables.com/ in Blandford Forum Dorset, at the time I started the company with my designs the cost for example for TQ Black was £1.50M, the Blue was in fact a test tool to check the moulding tool. The UB was £5.00/M and the Graphite was made from scrap Green and UB and sleeved this was only to be used in house but the sale/greed dept thought or not as it is scrap and thus a tax loss lets recycle and make loads of money. So if anybody wants cable made to your spec and to be made in the UK talk to John Kewley the MD of CC, have fun.

Happy new year to you Colin, I hope you are getting better. Thanks for the link. Very interesting, may give John a call. I only live in Yeovil aswell.

Docfoster

AntiCrap said:

Merry Christmas and have a Happy New Year, This might help.

TQ cables are made by http://www.conceptcables.com/ in Blandford Forum Dorset, at the time I started the company with my designs the cost for example for TQ Black was £1.50M, the Blue was in fact a test tool to check the moulding tool. The UB was £5.00/M and the Graphite was made from scrap Green and UB and sleeved this was only to be used in house but the sale/greed dept thought or not as it is scrap and thus a tax loss lets recycle and make loads of money. So if anybody wants cable made to your spec and to be made in the UK talk to John Kewley the MD of CC, have fun.

So someone made some money from those profit margins then (according to your figures wasn't UB retail price 10,000% of it's raw cost?)...
$-)

AntiCrap

Ben all the money I was lead to believe was going to be used on RD but it never happened he employed members of is family, including and after wrecking my life employed his not nice wife to a director position, and now new car all round, and he probably needed to replace a few doors has he had a habit of trying to open them with his fist..

Then I found on a hard drive all the costs etc.

Docfoster

AntiCrap said:

Ben all the money I was lead to believe was going to be used on RD but it never happened he employed members of is family, including and after wrecking my life employed his not nice wife to a director position, and now new car all round, and he probably needed to replace a few doors has he had a habit of trying to open them with his fist..

Then I found on a hard drive all the costs etc.

From what you write Colin, someone was having a laugh.
Well my TQ UBs (which, thank goodness, I bough second hand for a lot less than their £500/m retail price tag (I couldn't have bought them for that)) are very nicely soldered to their Z-plugs. May be that level of craftmanship demands monumental prices... 8-}
It's really difficult for the TQ owner these days. The cables are great, but are now tainted by all the unpleasant corporate shenanigans. And, I'm sure shenanigan tainting effects sound!