SPOILER THREAD - Star Wars: The Force Awakens
As per the thread title, this thread will contain spoilers.
For the non-spoiler thread see here.
I watched the film yesterday, and really enjoyed it. I smiled a lot and cried quite a bit and chuckled a few times.
Overall I felt it was both an excellent film in its own right, and a modernisation of the original saga. It had some of the "feel" of the Star Wars films I watched as a child, but also felt like a more contemporary movie in terms of its sophistication.
The old stroy elements and characters were knitted in neatly with the new aspects. If anything some of the old characters played a larger part in the film than I was expecting.
Effects were impressive and convincing, combining real models and sets with CGI trickery.
Music was highly evocative and well done.
One of the ways it felt more like 2015 was in terms of the charaterisations. Ther personality of some of the older characters such as Han Solo were given far more room to breath. Han, who is a pretty one dimenisional loveable rogue stereotype in the original trilogy was placed in situations where his other facets could be convincingly expressed. Pleasing also that the friendship between Han and Chewie was also well acknowledged. Both touchingly and ammusingly.
But, it was the new characters that really stole the show for me. I loved the way that new baddie, Kylo Ren was so conflicted: always at risk of being seduced by "the light" he regalarly prays (sometimes to Darth Vader himself) for strength to remain committed to the dark side. Personally I would have liked to have seen more of this. I would imagine that this will be further explored in the next installment. Storm-Trooper-with-a-conscience Fin struggled with his senses of integrity, mission and honesty for the first part of the film. And, scavanger loner Rey provided my favourite ever female lead. I'm afraid that when I realised the lead of the new Star Wars film was likely to be a female I felt disappointed. Previously, when I've watched films with female leads I've never really clicked with them as much as I do with movie's in which the leading character is a man. I'd always assumed that this was because I'm the sexist that some people tell me I am. But, when I walked out of the cinema yesterday after being blown away by what Rey brought to the film, I wondered how it was I'd got to the age of 42 without ever before being presented with a film with a decent female character. She was a brilliant hero - confident without being cocky, frightened without being pathetic, competent without being invulnerable. In the first few scenes in which she meets Fin they have some amusing exchanges in which she explicitly sets out her stall, but throughout the film Rey's character presents brilliantly. The closest thing I can compare her to is Ripley from the Aliens, BUT Rey is much more human than Ripley: Whereas Ripley is basically a superhero male character played by a female actor, Rey is an aspirartional figure who represents all the most important and the best bits of humanity; she feels very more real: If I had a daughter I would be delighted with the role-modelling Rey provides.
Moving on from my love of Rey...The film (deliberately) lacked the reassuring presence of an older Jedi presence for almost its entirety. This made it feel a bit different to all of the other films. (And at the end of the film the audience are left with the expectation that the Jedi will return in episode 8. :-) )
I would have liked to have been given a little more explanation as to how Fin and Rey are so competent in their use of lightsabres without any known training. This would have been simple (e.g. perhaps Fin could have mentioned some relevant weapons training as a storm trooper). One furthe minor gripe is that the head baddie "Snoke" has the name (and to a lesser extent the look) of a Harry Potter villain. But he was menacing enough and I imagine will become a more interesting character in the next film.
Also perhaps the overall plot of The Force Awakens made it feel a bit like a cover version of A New Hope, but the new characters and finer plot details made it sufficiently different. Moreover, I suppose there are a limited number of ways that the struggle between good and evil and can be told.
Overall I found the film captivating and affecting. Relative to the other Star Wars films it easily surpassed my minimum hope of it being more enjoyable than the prequels. I would also rate it above Return of the Jedi. For me, it doesn't top my favourite The Empire Strikes Back, but may be on a par with Episode 4. Very hard to comapre 4 and 7, as they are 2 very differently constructed movies and I was 5 years old when I saw A New Hope for the first time! Perhaps such comparisons are silly anyway, but I can't resist them! :-) In any event I'm delighted with the The Force Awakens. Most of all, I'm relieved that the wait for it is over. I had become consumed by expectation, and it's wonderful to be liberated from that. :-)
For the non-spoiler thread see here.
I watched the film yesterday, and really enjoyed it. I smiled a lot and cried quite a bit and chuckled a few times.
Overall I felt it was both an excellent film in its own right, and a modernisation of the original saga. It had some of the "feel" of the Star Wars films I watched as a child, but also felt like a more contemporary movie in terms of its sophistication.
The old stroy elements and characters were knitted in neatly with the new aspects. If anything some of the old characters played a larger part in the film than I was expecting.
Effects were impressive and convincing, combining real models and sets with CGI trickery.
Music was highly evocative and well done.
One of the ways it felt more like 2015 was in terms of the charaterisations. Ther personality of some of the older characters such as Han Solo were given far more room to breath. Han, who is a pretty one dimenisional loveable rogue stereotype in the original trilogy was placed in situations where his other facets could be convincingly expressed. Pleasing also that the friendship between Han and Chewie was also well acknowledged. Both touchingly and ammusingly.
But, it was the new characters that really stole the show for me. I loved the way that new baddie, Kylo Ren was so conflicted: always at risk of being seduced by "the light" he regalarly prays (sometimes to Darth Vader himself) for strength to remain committed to the dark side. Personally I would have liked to have seen more of this. I would imagine that this will be further explored in the next installment. Storm-Trooper-with-a-conscience Fin struggled with his senses of integrity, mission and honesty for the first part of the film. And, scavanger loner Rey provided my favourite ever female lead. I'm afraid that when I realised the lead of the new Star Wars film was likely to be a female I felt disappointed. Previously, when I've watched films with female leads I've never really clicked with them as much as I do with movie's in which the leading character is a man. I'd always assumed that this was because I'm the sexist that some people tell me I am. But, when I walked out of the cinema yesterday after being blown away by what Rey brought to the film, I wondered how it was I'd got to the age of 42 without ever before being presented with a film with a decent female character. She was a brilliant hero - confident without being cocky, frightened without being pathetic, competent without being invulnerable. In the first few scenes in which she meets Fin they have some amusing exchanges in which she explicitly sets out her stall, but throughout the film Rey's character presents brilliantly. The closest thing I can compare her to is Ripley from the Aliens, BUT Rey is much more human than Ripley: Whereas Ripley is basically a superhero male character played by a female actor, Rey is an aspirartional figure who represents all the most important and the best bits of humanity; she feels very more real: If I had a daughter I would be delighted with the role-modelling Rey provides.
Moving on from my love of Rey...The film (deliberately) lacked the reassuring presence of an older Jedi presence for almost its entirety. This made it feel a bit different to all of the other films. (And at the end of the film the audience are left with the expectation that the Jedi will return in episode 8. :-) )
I would have liked to have been given a little more explanation as to how Fin and Rey are so competent in their use of lightsabres without any known training. This would have been simple (e.g. perhaps Fin could have mentioned some relevant weapons training as a storm trooper). One furthe minor gripe is that the head baddie "Snoke" has the name (and to a lesser extent the look) of a Harry Potter villain. But he was menacing enough and I imagine will become a more interesting character in the next film.
Also perhaps the overall plot of The Force Awakens made it feel a bit like a cover version of A New Hope, but the new characters and finer plot details made it sufficiently different. Moreover, I suppose there are a limited number of ways that the struggle between good and evil and can be told.
Overall I found the film captivating and affecting. Relative to the other Star Wars films it easily surpassed my minimum hope of it being more enjoyable than the prequels. I would also rate it above Return of the Jedi. For me, it doesn't top my favourite The Empire Strikes Back, but may be on a par with Episode 4. Very hard to comapre 4 and 7, as they are 2 very differently constructed movies and I was 5 years old when I saw A New Hope for the first time! Perhaps such comparisons are silly anyway, but I can't resist them! :-) In any event I'm delighted with the The Force Awakens. Most of all, I'm relieved that the wait for it is over. I had become consumed by expectation, and it's wonderful to be liberated from that. :-)
Comments
I loved the 2 scenes when Kylo received bad news. He didn't respond with an outwardly bottled-up calm response, as would have Vader, but rather trashed a control console with his lightsabre in a raging tantrum. Again, an example of how the characters in the film were shown to be more multi-faceted than one dimensional stereotypes.
Further to my feminist enjoyment of Rey's character, I respected the fact that the female Strom Trooper Captain Phasma was dressed in completely androgynous armour (albeit silver). It would have been easy to give in to sexing her up a bit and to stick a busty chest plate on her. Better that this was resisted.
When I left the cinema two kids (a brother and sister) were enthusiastically playing with lightsabres outside. That made me smile too.
The richness of self-referral was at first endearing and engaging. Its pedigree served it well, and made sympathy with established characters easy, esp., as you say, some did have more breathing space.
But at the midway point, I was getting distracted by 1) debating at what point self-referral because self-plagiarism and 2) enjoying recognising scenes shot in Puzzlewood (a fave summer haunt for me).
However, in the second half I did re-engage , due in no small part by the millenium falcon gymnastics and crash landings, and the lightsabre duels. And by the end, I did feel sufficiently invested in the new characters and did feel there had been sufficient originality added to the plotline in order to day Id enjoyed it and not been disappointed.
I, of course, fully endorse a female hero. I thought Daisy Ridley (sp?) absolutely looked the part. And pulled of the Star Wars tradition of awful delivery of dialogue admirably
Final score.... 6.7 / 10.
(btw, this is all based on 2D. I'm not a fan of 3D as a rule - with the exception of TT3D maybe.)
"Awfully delivered dialogue". Absolutely. At times the Star Wars franchise has offered up some of the worst acting in cinema history. I watched "The Empire Strikes Back" with my son and brother yesterday morning (the morning after the night before), and one line by a minor Imperial Commander ("Good. Our first catch of the day") is delivered so awfully it must have been deliberate.
The similarities between Epsiode 7 and 4 are definitely worth discussing further. I was surprised that there was so much mimicry of Episode 4. Even a cheeky Mos Eisley cantina scene type thing with various weird and unsavoury characters. As I say, at times (but only at times, important to stress that) it did feel like a cover version. But a good cover version. :-) Most importantly, I do feel that I want to defend the film against accusations of plagiarism, so it must have won me over. I'm not sure how objective I can be in my critique of the movie now, so I won't suggest where the line is between self-referencing and self-plagiarising, just that I was surprised rather than disappointed at those aspects of the film that did draw on a New Hope's narrative. I read one review this morning hypothesising that JJ Abrams and his team must have sat down and explicitly distilled out the formula that made Episode 4 work, in order to ensure that all of those component parts were present in this film. I can well believe this. At least, the similarities absolutely cannot have been consciously unnoticed by the production team, and so one would presume not somehow undiscussed by JJ.
Re. the Puzzle Wood thing. I did learn of this only the day before seeing the movie. And yes, it was distracting to me too, and I would have liked to have not known it until after seeing the film (thank you BBC local news).
Suzy, coming from you I'm wondering whether "absolutely looked the part" is possibly a criticism of Rey's casting. To what extent did you mean it to be?
Chewie was great. I enjoyed the moments when he acts as critical friend of Han, refusing to deny reports of Han's previous mistakes!
Some of my favourite lines of the film:
When Kylo Ren tells Lor San Tekka (Max Von Sydow) how much he's aged since their last meeting, Lor repostes "Somthing far worse has happened to you."
And I chuckled my head off when Rey, infuriated by Fin's attempts to be chivalrously-helpful / mysoginistically-repressive* (*delete as appropriate) as they escape an attack, shouts at him "I know how to run without you holding my hand!".
I have booked in to see the film again on Monday afternoon. :-)
Like Suzy, I gravtitate more towards the 2D experience, but I plan to see the film for a third time and in 3D between Christmas and the New Year. :-)
"Suzy, coming from you I'm wondering whether "absolutely looked the part" is possibly a criticism of Rey's casting. To what extent did you mean it to be?"
Best thing about Kylo is his birth name...
Ben Solo... :-)
On reading your thoughts and impressions I'm left refreshed and in wonder at the level of pleasure/satisfaction that you derived from watching the latest outing. (I've not seen it yet)
I don't think I've ever been that immersed with any film and bow to your eager enjoyment. Maybe I'm just too cynical or ? to acheive the same level of celluloid stimulation. I'm almost jealous!.....I do have a son called Luke though! (not inspired by the septology).
I also love the fact that "The Struggle" is unlrelenting for you. Not satisfied with the post-Force-Awakens facts that best hero in any Star Wars film is now a woman, or that most of the male characters are emotionally illiterate toddlers, you demand that Leia's General role is unsufficient because she is merely a "co-ordinator" rather than a "strategist". Good to see that you remain ruthless in your mission to sweep out the last sticky cobwebs of mysoginist hegemony from the remotest corners of our society.
I had forgotten that Chewie moment. Very funny. Though I did find it a bit patronising and sexist towards Chewie.
X(
A real relief also that you suggest that my enthusiasm and affection for a movie franchise have value and are not pathetic or embarrassing.
"Pleasure" and "satisfaction" are bang on as descriptors of how I feel about The Force Awakens.
I'm intrigued to read your thoughts about what words might be substituted for your "?"
And so will withdraw from this thread before my sarcasm gets loose.
I'm a little disappointed. I was anticipating your return barrage... ;-)
Also a bit worried, and hoping that my jibing was not too badly timed.
Take care.
May the force be with you.
Interesting how I was able to surrender to the experience, rather than analyse this time.
Also a different experience being with kids, who jump, and hide their eyes, and laugh so overtly.
We both agreed that the final Han scene was more emotive 2nd time round. And both cried.
My nephew's comment in the last scene: "you've got to admit, its a real cliffhanger"
I think i agree with you about the Han scene. Because i'm not too clever with narratice anticipation, first time round i didn't get kylo's "i have to do something difficult..." line.
Will Ben Solo be saved by his old ma Leia in some future installment?
Personally, I just can't get on with that format. Others clearly do. May be I'm just not focussing on the screen properly or something.
Initially I find the 3D effect distracting rather than immersive.
Then I start to perceive the on-sceen 3D effect as being like a Victorian paper theatre like this one:
So my brain tells me that the image is not of 3D solid objects at gradiated distances from me, but a series of 2D flat objects placed at various set stages.
Finally my mind seems to cancel out the effect altogether. There's also some blurring and some gloominess.
How do other people find the 3D experience?
I haven't tried iMax. I suspect that is something my brain would engage better with.
However, any scene with fast panning, or people/objects that were fractionally on a different focal plane failed to impress. How can one person be in soft focus while the other, standing next to them is in soft focus? Surely it's the same camera? I agree about odd lighting variances as well that look plain wrong.
My hope is that 3D bites the dust alongside curved TV screens.
I couldn't fault the sound system they use at the IMAX. It was way too loud and the bass slam made me feel sick at times.....perfect! Dolby Atmos made effects steering far more convincing compared to normal 7.1 soundtracks. It really fills in the gap when effects move from the front to rear soundstage or vice versa.
When I get some free time I'll add my thoughts on the film, although I largely concur with your views Ben. A solid 8 out of 10 for me.
I felt very differently, though you may be right about the sun-set scene...
B-)
http://uk.businessinsider.com/star-wars-force-awakens-apocalypse-now-influence-2015-12
Eh? Are you sure? I don't remember that.
Who do you remember saying it.
https://uk.movies.yahoo.com/post/140738171806/jj-abrams-chewbacca-snub-was-biggest-mistake-of
And, I hadn't realised that the first had been corrected in 1997!...