Budget Dac's - how good are they ?

Mervyn

Having just got into computer audio I have come to the view that the dac is now a very key part of any such system. This then begged the question as to whether dacs at the lower end of the market whilst being very good value for money can provide a serious audiophile ( he said snobbily ) sound.

I have briefly heard Caiman/Dacmagic/ Music Fidelity V dac/ King Rex dacs. Personally I found that they basically sound reasonably similar with subtle differences but no outstandingly obvious winner. I have come across the view several times that these dacs are at budget prices because they do not go in for seriously expensive cases 'bling' badges etc. The premise is the money is spent on the electronics and not the fancy clothing hence keeping down the price.
I have to confess to a nagging doubt that quality does cost and whilst higher end dacs are perhaps not as good value for money they are sonically better. Call it hi-fi snobbery if you will but I await the new generation of mid-priced dacs ( Audiolab/Young etc) to see how they stack up. Like all hi-fi more expense is not necessarily better sound but dacs are probably one of the more complex bits of kit where good design pays off to a greater degree.

Alan

Horses for courses, Mervyn - I think budget DACs do cut the mustard. I have a DACmagic here, which took a while to grow on me admittedly, but has a very sweet midrange. The Caiman is an altogether better proposition, and I would happily give it house room indefinitely. It has resided in my system for a few months now, in fact I recently bought the 'gator' modification from Stanley Beresford, which is an uprated output stage, but it doesn't seem to agree with NVA amplification, so it's back to (very good) stock form. I shall move the 'Gator' on if Stanley doesn't accept returns on it, as it is reputedly a very worthwhile improvement.

Gator:  http://www.beresford.me/main/main.html

I replaced a very nice Theta DAC (originally £2,400) with these budget units, and they have acquitted themselves very well. The Theta would be my preference long term, but that's down to presentation, character rather than ability. The Caiman especially resolves considerably more detail than the Theta managed, but detail is not the sole arbiter of success. I would happily live with any of these three DACs.

The Theta was only moved on to fund a new DAC purchase - originally the Audiolab but now the M2Tech Young. It's time for the game to move on.

Mervyn

Alan

Interested to read your comments particularly wrt the Beresford. Logic says I should give it a try particularly as our systems are very similar re TTS/Royds. Not a huge outlay and you can always move them on at no great loss.

Technology does move on of course and so dacs should get better - you pays your dosh and takes your choice.

 

uglymusic

I think the overriding lesson from the show was how similar all the DACs sounded, irrespective of price point.

What we didn't have at the show, of course, was any of the new-generation DACs (such as the Young DAC and Wyred4Sound DAC 2) with the asynchronous USB chipsets, or a Firewire DAC. In fact, I think everything we auditioned except the TFS was through USB.

@Alan and I are hoping to be doing some serious listening over the coming weeks. My guess (hope?) is that ditching the bog-standard USB interface for something more audiophile may do the trick.

Alan

I believe Coops now has a shipping date for the M2Techs to arrive (weather permitting), so all things being equal my Beresford may be up for grabs within a month. The Cambridge as well, I suppose.

Chaps - What's the snow like on the coast? I am near Croydon & it's laying pretty well. Trying to decide if I should head home early..

uglymusic

I shall look forward to wrapping my ears around a Young DAC.

There's no snow here in the People's Republic of Worthing, just bright happy sunshine. 

Alan

Thanks, Boss.

Alan

I love the signature, BTW.
:-D

uglymusic

I love the signature, BTW.
:-D

Whaaay, thaaaaanks, kaaaind sir.

The best thing about it, is it's true 

:-D

Jim

Had some snow here in St Leonards Alan but it's not really settled.  and now the sun is out.

RobHolt

For me the specs rule with digital electronics, and something like a DacMagic, or even the little MF get very close to state of the art cost no object performance. It takes huge amounts of cash to go just that little bit further, and the audibility of that is questionable IMO.

I use one of our Audiosmile dacs at home (with transformer in/out) mainly because it also does other stuff, but the MF or Cambridge units sound just as good if all that is required is a simple dac.

Rob.

Alan

Chaps - What's the snow like on the coast? I am near Croydon & it's laying pretty well. Trying to decide if I should head home early..

Right - I left New Addington (nr Croydon) at 3:15, got home at 10pm...

How was your day?

uglymusic

Chaps - What's the snow like on the coast? I am near Croydon & it's laying pretty well. Trying to decide if I should head home early..

Right - I left New Addington (nr Croydon) at 3:15, got home at 10pm...

How was your day?

That sounds like a crap end to the day.

I stayed in my home office and watched absolutely no snow in the People's Republic.

uglymusic

For me the specs rule with digital electronics, and something like a DacMagic, or even the little MF get very close to state of the art cost no object performance. It takes huge amounts of cash to go just that little bit further, and the audibility of that is questionable IMO.

I use one of our Audiosmile dacs at home (with transformer in/out) mainly because it also does other stuff, but the MF or Cambridge units sound just as good if all that is required is a simple dac.

Rob.

So that POV doesn't rule out my suspicions about interfaces, then?

Certainly the small improvements I heard on the £4K DAC we had in the room at the show were seriously in the land of diminishing returns.

I'm optimistic about finding something that doesn't require that kind of outlay and does give a tangible improvement over my cheapy.

Docfoster

I have owned only 2 DACs. Both Musical Fidelity.
X-DAC (the orginal bean can design). I don't know how much it cost new. I picked it up for around £120 ages ago. It wasn't terribly impressive with the Marantz CD63SE that I was then using. May be the CDP was equally as to blame.
I replaced that with an A3 24 192k DAC which I still use today. It has shown differences between every transport that I have fed it with. And has sounded better than all of their on-board DACs - though my current Sony BDP runs it close.
I have no idea about the technical stuff, and don't know what respective sonic parts are played by power supplies, digital conversion and output stage...
Ben

Alan

I have clearly heard differences between even very similar DACs, but as I've already said that is quite likely a  difference in character rather than ability. Such differences are certainly subtle - it seems the law of diminishing returns is in at a much lower level than it used to, which is great. Some of the new budget gear seems better than older reference kit, which can only be good news.

I think DACs are in a changing phase right now, as computer audio becomes more common. Higher sampling rates as standard, with either firewire or USB inputs which asynchronously re-clocks would be the minimum spec I'd want from long term purchase so as to be 'future proof' for a few years (if that''s not too much of an oxymoron).

RobHolt

For me the specs rule with digital electronics, and something like a DacMagic, or even the little MF get very close to state of the art cost no object performance. It takes huge amounts of cash to go just that little bit further, and the audibility of that is questionable IMO.

I use one of our Audiosmile dacs at home (with transformer in/out) mainly because it also does other stuff, but the MF or Cambridge units sound just as good if all that is required is a simple dac.

Rob.

So that POV doesn't rule out my suspicions about interfaces, then?

Certainly the small improvements I heard on the £4K DAC we had in the room at the show were seriously in the land of diminishing returns.

I'm optimistic about finding something that doesn't require that kind of outlay and does give a tangible improvement over my cheapy.

I'd agree Dave, interface is usually what is responsible for differences between good electronics and often trumps differences in the design IMO. For example, a dac with an op amp output can ring slightly when partnered with certain cables unless there is a resistive buffer in series. Those using a tube output stage will be very dependent on the loading that follows, and certain dacs are known, by accident or design, to have HF noise on the output which can upset wide-band amplifiers.

Most interface conditions are benign enough not be a worry, but there are certainly exceptions.

Rob.

Alan

Would there be any merit to trying a cable like this?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/USB-2-0-Firewire-6-Pin-1394-IEEE-Adapter-Cable-1-5m-/330470253743?pt=UK_Computing_CablesConnectors_RL&hash=item4cf18fe4af

It is Firewire (6 pin) at one end & USB at the other. I know nothing about firewire - there seem to be sevral different connections, 4 pin, 6 pin - is there 8 pin as well? The MAC I have has firewire 400 & firewire 800, and I have no idea how many pins they would require, though the 4 pin version appears to be half sized.