Justice...?

Docfoster

I'm really annoyed today, and becoming more so...!
What is this Bin Laden "being brought to justice" nonsense being quoted on all media networks...?
In this case justice has been denied any course whatsoever.
There's
no need to shed a tear for the man himself -  but it is a real shame
that the west has not been able to demonstrate the power and virtue of
the rule of law as the strong alternative to terrorism.
It would have
been far more politically and ethically preferable, if difficult, to
put Bin Laden on trial (and subsequently execute him).
What's happened is in fact understandable revenge. To label it "justice" is problematic for a whole host of reasons.
Rant over.

PAC

I can't agree with that in it's entirety.  It matters not if he had been brought to trial as everyone knows what the outcome would have been anyway.  He has already been tried by the international community as a murderer and an insighter of murder, plain and simple.  What the Americans did was absolutely right.  No giving away intelligence, just track him down, deal with him and dump the body at sea so that a martyrs funeral is denied.  That sends a clear message out that anyone else entering the world stage preaching and practising violence, murder and hate cannot get away with their actions...they will be tracked down and dealt with.  That ought not to be seen as purely a USA policy, but one that the whole international community must back to exterminate the sources of unjust violence and hate from these fractious groups hell bent on destruction of the democratic process and instilling their medieval literal violent philosophies world wide.  It's not a matter of who the man was, but what he was.  It has nothing to do with religion but everything to do with being one extremely dangerous and violent man.

However, his timely death won't change a single thing.  They'll go on as they have been doing for the last decade, and all this will do, brought to trial or not, is give an excuse for a stepped up campain.  I just hope that the USA and the UK are ready for that.  What is inexcusable totally and utterly is that this man was within sight of a Pakistan officer training camp, and no-one seriously believes that the Pakistani authorities, who have been careful to absolutely deny his presence in their country, knew nothing about it.  That's a disgrace and I'll be very interested in how they respond to the inevitable enquiries.

Its a complex issue and no-one has the answers, but history must be examined to see the results of allowing terrorists to take the upper hand.  Unless they are stamped out, whole generations could be lost on both sides for decades to come and that's the real tragedy. This isn't like what's going on in Libya where I feel the Americans and British have reacted rather predictably and won't do anything to heal that nation by current means.  In that situation, I'm all for a solution by diplomatic means otherwise, as with Iraq, far too many innocent lives will be lost. 

Docfoster

It is complex.
The only point I'm making is it's not "being brought to justice" - at least not in any "rule of law" sense worth going to war for 10 years over.
I can see plenty of good practical reasons for helicoptering in and shooting him in the face. (Or may be the SEAL guys tried to capture him alive, and he put up fight...?)
Whatever the case, I don't want the media calling it "bringing to justice". It's lazy, and misses one of the central points of why western democracy is worth defending.

PAC

Understood but maybe learning that the Navy Seals first tried to reason with the guy and he had the option of "coming quietly" didn't work..a firefight ensued, so perhaps its a little too easy to judge not being on the ground.  Either way he got what he so richly deserved.

bhobba

The guy got what he deserved - simple as that.  He is responsible for killing thousands - no trial required - although I suspect if he surrendered he would have been taken alive - the propaganda value of trialling him would have been a big plus.  He would have known that and reacted accordingly.  Exactly what the fallout of this will be is not really clear - it will not affect the terrorist networks but he was definitely a figurehead to these types and sends a message - you will get caught.

Thanks

Bill

sq225917

How is he responsible for killing thousands. There's no possible way anyone can know how or if he was involved in or in any way sanctioned/approved 911.

Sure he funded training camps in Afghanistan, that was never denied by him and the money trace was well known.

He was just a figurehead.

If he had been taken alive just imagine all the bombs going off in the US this week, think of all the civilians being kidnapped around the world in reprisals.

bhobba

How is he responsible for killing thousands. There's no possible way anyone can know how or if he was involved in or in any way sanctioned/approved 911. Sure he funded training camps in Afghanistan, that was never denied by him and the money trace was well known. He was just a figurehead. If he had been taken alive just imagine all the bombs going off in the US this week, think of all the civilians being kidnapped around the world in reprisals.

He admitted to those killings himself in the many rants he issued to the world.  He is as guilty as they come. Yes their would have been risks if he was taken alive - I just believe the benefits would far outweigh them. Certainly he was just a figurehead but by his own self admission was totally complicit in everything Al-Qaeda did.

Thanks

Bill

Thanks

Bill

Docfoster

I'm unsure whether the killing itself was right or wrong - I can see arguments on both sides. He would have been a very problemic prisoner, but a trial would have given the west the chance to demonstrate to the wider workd the value of measured, cold judicial process in a democratic society, even if he had been executed as a result. In any event, as I said, his death in itself is no tragedy.
What I'm uncomfortable about is the initial framing of the killing as a "bringing to justice". It looked to me more like a war killing, rather than a 'bringing to justice' - at least in the aspirational sense that westerners take pride in.
I sense that the US gvt, and perhaps the more rational parts of the media are changing their framing of the killing - some US spokesman was talking yesterday about an "act of national self defence" - which I think is fair enough. It's more accurate and does necessarily make the killing less legitimate.
But, I accept that this is all a bit anal. Though hey, we are men posting on a Hifi forum... ;-)

sq225917

Here's an entirely new concept for you.

Some people will take credit for something they haven't actually done if they think it will benefit them...