Adventures of the Subwoofer Variety

Brumjam

For a while now I've felt that my Adam speakers and listening room aren't the best of friends when it comes to reproducing lower frequency notes.  Despite the Adam's having a few dials on the back to adjust various frequency settings, I've never managed to get the sound to my liking.

Anyway I was at a loose end today and decided to reintroduce my Audio Note pre back into the chain, to compare using it against the Young DAC straight into my speakers (using Audirvarna+ volume control).  While I was hooking the pre into my system I noticed that it has two sets of line level outs on the back.  So what I've done is to hook up my speakers as normal, then use the other set of outputs to pass the audio signal to my Velodyne SPL sub.  Now the Velodyne normally does nothing more than shake the room when I'm watching movies and it plays no part in any serious two channel listening.  It's taken a lot of adjusting of sub's crossover and volume, plus a fair amount of readjusting the Adam's settings but do you know what?  I think I like having the sub in play for two channel listening.  No doubt with some decent eq software and a mic (plus someone who know's what they are doing!)  the sub/speakers could be even better integrated, but for now I can't tell that the added bass weight is coming from anywhere other than the main speakers.....that's until I switch the sub off and my toe stops tapping quite so much.

This little experiment has got me thinking again about possibly buying a high quality pre (with dual outputs) and a better sub now.  I've heard the latest SVS subs are meant to be equally adept with music as they are with movies.  Adam Audio also have a matching Tensor sub but I'd have to sell a kidney to afford it.

So what do we think folks?  Could this be a way of delivering 'hi-fi' lower frequencies whilst using a relatively compact stand mount for the mids and treble? Or is it likely that there will be integration issues?

uglymusic

I'm not a fan of subs, but haven't heard the latest SVS ones you mention  Every one I tried back in the day just didn't do that prat thing and integrate with the main speakers.

However, if you're looking to play with some digital EQ on your Mac, you could have a look at this thread on Audiosmile.

I'm planning to install Audio Hijack Pro on my MacBook.

Docfoster

For me, subs can be useful in a small speaker system. I need my bass frequencies to enjoy music!

Brumjam

Cheers for the link Dave. This is going to be a very steep learning curve for me but something that's of great interest given the initial results I experienced yesterday with the sub integrated by ear. I agree with your prat point.....My sub uses a 10" driver and it does sound slightly behind the 6.5" drivers in my speakers, like the sub note overhangs the speaker note if that makes sense. This could be due to a number of factors that will all take time to explore.

I suppose that the eq software or something similar as described in your link is the solution, but where would I start in terms of understanding where the issues lie with my room/speaker integration? Are you aware of any software that can run sweeps to ascertain where I might need to apply eq?

James

Brumjam

This looks like a good starting point to understand what's happening in a room before any eq is applied:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/

uglymusic

Cheers for the link Dave. This is going to be a very steep learning curve for me but something that's of great interest given the initial results I experienced yesterday with the sub integrated by ear. I agree with your prat point.....My sub uses a 10" driver and it does sound slightly behind the 6.5" drivers in my speakers, like the sub note overhangs the speaker note if that makes sense. This could be due to a number of factors that will all take time to explore.

I suppose that the eq software or something similar as described in your link is the solution, but where would I start in terms of understanding where the issues lie with my room/speaker integration? Are you aware of any software that can run sweeps to ascertain where I might need to apply eq?

James

It does make sense. I know exactly what you mean. The lagging/dragging effect of subs has always been the deal-breaker for me.

I've always felt the problem lay in the sub being off-axis from the main drivers; the sub working semi-independently of the main speaker.

I wonder if there's any value in using EQ to see if you can get some more bass extension out of the Adams?

uglymusic

This looks like a good starting point to understand what's happening in a room before any eq is applied:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/

Great. Thanks for that James.

I'm on the same spot on the learning curve as you, but I do have someone who should be able to explain it to me. 

mattlynch

hi Fellas, i have been using a very cheap sub from BK electronics for some time with my little usher s520's , the 520 sounds so much better when pulled free of walls but as you can imagine any bass they have almost vanishes in this situation, having tried many reflex loaded subs over the years i always found them to be disjointed and all too audible, the little xls300 from BK is a sealed box (IB type) and utterly vanishes acoustically  once set up,

 i have also found that with all the active subs i have used the high or speaker level input is always the best integrated compared with the line/pre level inputs, i found this a bit counter intuitive at first but i guess that the influence of the amp is now the same for all speakers driven ,  for me in my rooms IB's are the way to go .
all the best,
matt

Brumjam

I've heard good things about BK subs Matt. Am I right in thinking that they manufacture subs for other brands?

My Velodyne is also sealed. It uses a 10" driver. I think the sub must be sealed to stand any hope of keeping pace with the main speakers. What kind of adjustment do you have on your BK to help with integration?

My sub has high-level inputs but I've got to go down the line level route because my main speakers are also active.

mattlynch

hi brum,
from what i have read they do indeed make the amp panels for quite a few companies, fully agree with your comments on IB's being necessary for use in music based systems,
adjustments are just the usual level controls although it does have separate controls for both high and low level inputs  along with a switch so that it can be connected to an av system and stereo system and with a flick of the switch works with either without having to readjust anything, it can also be used with the internal filter disabled for use in dolby or THX set ups, it also has the obligatory phase control  which i keep set to '0' with the little ushers but is a god send with better extended speakers as it allows progresive adjustment at the crossover point to remove any humps that may occur in the in room response,
the active speakers are i suspect very fast sounding as is, so, finding a suitable sub may well be difficult , might be worth having a look at the xtz sub amp and build a pair of IB bass speakers to sit under the actives, i can hartily recommend peerless xls drivers for the task ,

Brumjam

Well after a few hours doing research it appears that I'm going to need more gear than I first thought. My trusty RadioShack SPL meter is only suitable for analysing the output from a subwoofer - it's no use for measuring full range output from my main speakers. So my next step is to research a suitable microphone which will also require phantom power and a mic preamp. The nice thing about the RadioShack meter is that it has a mono output which can be connected directly to my MBP via a minijack adaptor.

So tomorrow night I will mostly be researching microphones :-?

Brumjam

hi brum,
from what i have read they do indeed make the amp panels for quite a few companies, fully agree with your comments on IB's being necessary for use in music based systems,
adjustments are just the usual level controls although it does have separate controls for both high and low level inputs  along with a switch so that it can be connected to an av system and stereo system and with a flick of the switch works with either without having to readjust anything, it can also be used with the internal filter disabled for use in dolby or THX set ups, it also has the obligatory phase control  which i keep set to '0' with the little ushers but is a god send with better extended speakers as it allows progresive adjustment at the crossover point to remove any humps that may occur in the in room response,
the active speakers are i suspect very fast sounding as is, so, finding a suitable sub may well be difficult , might be worth having a look at the xtz sub amp and build a pair of IB bass speakers to sit under the actives, i can hartily recommend peerless xls drivers for the task ,

As much as I like the idea of two bass speakers I would not get away with it on grounds of domestic acceptability [-( Therefore whatever I decide upon will need to be a single sub located next to one of my main speakers.

mattlynch

ah! well you could try one of these , http://www.eminent-tech.com/main.html , a mere breeze at $25,000 ,

:-D

uglymusic

Is that a 21st Century Leslie cabinet? 

mattlynch

lol, something else init, a driver that goes all the way down to DC but, needs a spare room behind it as a cabinet! love to hear a system with one of though.
;-)

uglymusic

Love to feel a system...? :-)

mattlynch

true that!! i will be keeping an eye out for eminent attending any British shows , i will travel the length of the country to experience that thing ,hopefully paired up with the LFT8's,

:-D

uglymusic

You'll only want one, you know that :-)

mattlynch

i couldnt even dream of such things Dave,although i do have a redundant spare room with all brick walls that would make a lovely walk in speaker cabinet,lol, seriously though ,when ever a helicopter has flown over me and i have felt that wonderful low frequency pulse from the rotor blades i have wondered , how could i get that sort of bass ? it would appear that the guy that built that thing had the know how to take that idea and implement it as a domestic drive unit , i cant help but feel quite exited at the thought of hearing a system that can do that sort of effortless and natural bass , at the same time i do wonder how many recordings actually have bass low enough to exploit such a device,
=P~