CD - RIP

edited November 2011 in Digital
See what I did with the title? Oh,...

CDs to be phased out (maybe) in 2012.

Seems a lot more feasible than when the rumour last few around.

Comments

  • OK. No problem as long as we get CD quality or better downloads as the norm.
  • i would say yeeha , but, a lot of people have a lot of money invested in hi cost cd players and the nasty little discs that promised so much and yet delivered less than the format they were supposed to be superior to,
     i doubt its the end for the silver disc but it must go, leaving just an underground of cult users,
    personally i have always hated the things, it should have remained what it was intended to be, a replacement for the recordable compact cassette,
    dont get me wrong , i am not anti digital , its just the silver disc i hate, and the machines that play them , and the nasty jewel cases,and the way even a perfect looking disc can get stustustustustustuck, i believe that CD as a primary source was a retrograde step in terms of engaging the listener .
    vinyl and hi rez audio files are IMO the best way to go if you really want the music to 'touch your soul' for want of a better expression   .
    no offence to those that love them, just my opinion.
    :-D
  • edited November 2011
    From one POV, I think we should see CD as a storage format (as opposed to a playing format) whose time for retirement has come. 

    The music from my 2000 CDs now resides with the video from many of my DVDs on more modern storage in the shape of four 1TB 2.5" disks in my NAS.

    As a playing format, CD's retirement is long-passed. RAM killed it some time ago.
  • I agree with both of you. I now think of CDs as hard copy files for archive, or a durable delivery mechanism. They are still convenient for cars, and the kids bedroom system for the time being.

    I wondered for ages whether digital replay was the poor relation to analogue replay - and it often is the poor relation in the sense that more moulah gets tied up in a TT, 'stage, cart, PS etc than a one or two box CD system. Digital rarely got a fair crack at the whip IMO, mostly because the results were poor even with fairly decent investment.

    I understand some of the super expensive, heavily engineered Krell et al CD players re-clock and bufffer the data, and sound as good as anything past or present. But, they are still frightfully expensive second hand.

    Computer audio with a decent DAC gives a similar order of performance (and massive flexibility) for comparatively little money.
  • I just hope - like Rob said in t'other thread - that we see more masters and decent bit rate files at the very least.
  • Oh, CD rip. I geddit!
    :-D B-) ;;)
  • Well done, corporal Jones! I-) :-D
  • Good thread.
    Will get involved when less tired...
  • I for one will be glad to see this storage media for digital lies burned at the stake,
    How can a finite sampling produce the wonderfully random collection of signals and harmonic and sub harmonics of the real world of analogue??
    Let alone the nuances and delicacy of music.
    Bye  bye CD, horrid bird scarer. 
  • Ahem! Col, just because CD may be in its death throes, doesn't mean that digital is on the way out, of course.

    Even good Redbook is stunning through a good playback system.
  • i agree with Col,, i think that even the best Redbook CD replay is badly flawed , its tolerable for short periods, i also believe that there is something going on with individuals ability to hear what is wrong with CD , one of my mates loves it and swears its better than any analogue playback he has heard , i say the opposite, given the vast split in opinion i can only conclude that some peoples brains can handle the Redbook CD sound better than others can.  then again i am biased as i have had far too many issues with the silver disc and the machinery that replays it to give a neutral opinion of it.
    :-D
  • edited November 2011
    I can hear the flaws in most vinyl replay like I can in CD replay.

    I think you're also perhaps muddling Redbook files and Redbook CDs. CDs are
    hopelessly behind computer-based audio as a playback mechanism of the
    same specification files.

    Shame you're so far away. You could have come to my place and hear what digital is capable of. I'm not saying it's the best you'll hear from digital - far from it - but it is very good, nonetheless. I'm not being big-headed, just realistic. I've got to where I am with the system with steady improvements over many years.

  • i fully agree Dave, that digital recordings on vinyl are poor too,but, take a good analogue recording cut with an analogue mastering head on the lathe then transcribed to vinyl such as Hendrix electric ladyland vs the best all digital recording transferred to CD and IMO the analogue will kick butt, i am talking only about redbook specs for CD, i find low rez mp3 easier to listen to for long periods than i do the CD , digital is still a toddler in the grand scheme of things and i am not heaping digital into one heap, as mentioned in another thread i am now taking a serious look at assembling a good digital system using a mac mini and a good dac,
    i am of the opinion that CD was driven solely by the music industries greed and desire to have ever greater margins ,  and by turntable manufacturers making ever worse quality plastic devices that they called HI FI.
    of course i suffer bad digital files, and vinyl LP's but i love the music contained on them so continue to use them,
    as you mentioned computer audio is the future but for the hi fi nerd it depends on file quality , and so we are back to same old sad fact, any format is only as good as the work that went into the recording and processing of the data prior to it reaching us the user,
    after a recent Gomez gig i attended i got home and fired up the download file via a CA dacmagic and the same lp on the systemdek /alphason/modded DL103 combo through a CA 640p , the digital system cost almost double that of the analogue system and yet the analogue system was by far the closest to the gig i had just attended 2 hours before, yet the Brandenburg FLAC files i recently downloaded are by far the best recording i have heard in a long time and has me looking again at digital as a viable contributor to my enjoyment of music, its this sort of inconsistency that keeps me on the vinyl path , digital is full of promise but is being let down by the media , CD as a carrier regardless of effort put into production always has me heading for the power button and switching off half way through albums and skipping through tracks ,
    please dont take all this the wrong way as its just my opinion and personal preference but it does make me wonder if there is real validity to my point on different people being better able to process music being digitally reproduced.
    all the best,
    matt
    :)
  • We'll have to agree to differ, my friend.

    We're not going to agree on this one, and that's cool.
  • edited November 2011
    Hi Matt, nice post, lots of good throughts. Like Col, what you say sounds like its based on lots of experience.

    Your point about the digital arm of your rig costing more than the analogue side is - I think - relevant. As I said a little earlier, its easy to spend a lot on digital and get comparatively poor results, though that doesnt mean the DACmagic is poor. I liked mine.

    The thing is, I used a DACMagic, a Caiman, a Theta DS Pro Basic 2 and a Theta DS Pro Progeny. The two 'cheap' modern DACs were 'better' than the Thetas, but most of us would surely live with the Theta DACs by choice. They really played music very nicely indeed, but cost nearly £3k when new, and still make £400 ish second hand (which is how I came to have them). Accuracy didnt seem to be the be-all and end-all, desirable as it is. But thats changed now with newer generations of DACs, phenominal accuracy but fabulously musical presentation.

    Yes, I will have that cake. What's more, I am going to eat it!

    I contend that DACs have leapt ahead in value vs performance terms over the last year or so, the performance available for say £500 - £1500 now probably outstrips what you could get for £5000 and more going back to last year and further back.

    How would we know though? Given that digital replay meant poor results even at quite a high price point when analogue could be made very good for just a few hundred, no-one would want to splash out £5000 to hear what could really be done. Well, now we can, easily. A world class DAC can be had cheaply in hifi terms, Young, MDAC, Calyx etc.

    But the DAC is only part of the issue. Excellent decoding is essential for sure, but I only found the leap I was looking for when I did away with spinning discs. Cds have little place in High Fidelity IMO, they are good simply as storage and a delivery mechanism. They tend to post well...and they do make good bird scarers Col, placemats too.

    Eliminating trying to decode music in real time from a spinning disc is the greatest advance Im likely to hear from a single change of direction. Digital is honestly as good as anything now, and affordably so - which is a good thing. But spinning CDs is not they way forward.

    Sorry for the length of this post, lunchbreak appears to have overrun somewhat...
  • edited November 2011
    [columbo] just one more thing:/[columbo]

    your point about the quality of the recording, mixing and mastering being the biggest arbiter of quality, regardless of format, is spot on my friend. Have a cookie.
  • [columbo] just one more thing:/[columbo]






    :D
  • edited November 2011
    We'll have to agree to differ, my friend.

    We're not going to agree on this one, and that's cool.
    indeed mate, audio is funny like that, end of the day does your system make you want to listen to more music and put a smile on your face ? thats what really matters.
    also i can hardly wait to get some of those hi rez files playing via a good digital system , good as the dacmagic is for the cost i dont feel i am in a real position to asses how good/bad digital replay can be!

    :)
  • [columbo] just one more thing:/[columbo]

    your point about the quality of the recording, mixing and mastering being the biggest arbiter of quality, regardless of format, is spot on my friend. Have a cookie.
    its sadly all too true Alan, there are some very small outfits trying to raise the game but my tastes extend beyond folk,classical and the odd jazz release , and that seems to be where most of the care is being taken, roll on the future, i will keep my glass half full .
    matt
    ;-)
  • ...and I can wholeheartedly recommend odd jazz releases!
    Listen to them all the time, meself
    :D
  • I have heard good CD, and very bad vinyl , a typical example was Pink Floyds Wall on the UK press it was garbage on the German pressing it fantastic but the worse was the pressing from Japan.
    Now month before CD was the hit with Philips, Hitachi a small UK company I think it was Sound Stream produced a digital card about the same sizes as the dreaded credit card. I can recall hearing one at Brian O'Rouke's home it was amazing, I often wonder where did it go. (circa 1980) 
    Dave would you have any info on this?
    Sooner we move to 64Bits system the better, I think.

  • Nope. I don't know about that card, but it was presumably like the smaller memory cards we now plug into our cameras and phones. We could just as well stream a FLAC or similar file from one plugged into a computer - I have a memory card slot on my iMac, f'rinstance.

    Of course, SSD drives are the big brothers of such devices - so are the memory chips that are attached to the motherboard in my MacBook Air.

    The credit card device's relationship with our memory devices today is no doubt why it sounded so good - especially when up against the early CD players.

    HTH
  • A cheeky engineer friend of mine enjoyed pointing out, in an attempt to wind up my vinyl sensibilities, that a digital 16 bit depth likely provides a greater number of gradations than does the number of vinyl molecules in an LP groove.
    No idea how accurate this claim is mind.
  • Ha!  ^:)^ =D> \:D/
  • thankfully the EQ'ed analogue of the actual  waveform captured and pressed into vinyl isnt restricted to the molecule size of pvc ,
    regardless of CD's bit depth we still must rely on the replay device to reconstruct all those bits at the right time and in the right order into an analogue of the wave form ,
    i just prefer the re-EQ of the analogue rather than an attempt to reconstruct and then convert into an analogue of the waveform.
    :)
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