Cartridge advice

Gingernutt

Any suggestions please for a successor to the dynavector X 5 currently on the ittok arm of my unfashionable lp12?
The dv has been great, it succeeded a K9 which was dire.
I hear great things about its brothers the 20X2and the 17D3 . But these would be the very top of my budget .My nva phono2 is set for the high output of the dv, so a mm would be ok, but would have to be a marked improvement on the dv. On the other hand I could just do an exchange and get the same again.
What say you?
Thanks

Al

Docfoster

I had a dv20xh some years ago. Excellent cart'. Very smooth and silky. Have been using a decca super gold for a few years now, which was a step up from the dv in terms of realism and dynamics.
I've not heard the 17d3.

PAC

DV20xl is a fabulous MC for the money.  Don't discount the Denon's though.  If you can still find a good DL160, it would be a fine match and IMHO a better performaer than the 10x5.  DL110 is simply stunning value and unlike almost all HO MC's I've ever come across, it manages to sound more refined than even the Goldring MM's whilst retaining great dynamics and all this without a hint of harshness.

17D3 is (IMHO) a little pricey these days.  It can sound rather lean and analytical in some systems too.  Better all rounder I reckon is the Zyx HR100 for similar money. Can be imported a hell of a lot cheaper than buying from the UK.

In that territory, the Benz Glider (NOT the micro) is a more neutral cart and an excellent tracker too.

Also, in 17D3 territory is the Shelter 501...its a belter of a cartridge.  Rich, musical and with great dynamics but perhaps a touch too bloomy and warm in the mids for some people's liking.

Shelter 301 well worth the money too and is considerably cheaper.

The problem these days is simply the massive choices available!

Gingernutt

Thanks, people, I see what you mean about choice. I hadn't even heard of Shelter cartridges.
I see chat about the decca gold being a problem in the vertical plane. I take it that's not a view held in these parts?
Thanks

Docfoster

The decca super gold sounds ok to me. (What do problems in the vertical plane sound like?) I bought it after recommendations from others with similar systems, and certainly wasn't disappointed. It was more engaging than the dv20xh. I don't know what prices those are these days.
My experience of cart's is limited to half a dozen or so. So others will bring more experience to the vinyl party.
It is a bummer that home demos of carts is not often an option.

Gingernutt

Something about them being designed for mono, so adaptation for stereo is not necessarily successful at that pricepoint?
Dunno, just repeating stuff in an empty headed, credulous sort of way so someone can dismiss the idea.

coops

Ginger Hi, I have a 17d3 it has only been used for photography it probably has a genuine 5 hours on it.
Keith.

Docfoster

Something about them being designed for mono, so adaptation for stereo is not necessarily successful at that pricepoint?
Dunno, just repeating stuff in an empty headed, credulous sort of way so someone can dismiss the idea.

Sorry, no can do. I lack the understanding...!
:-D

PAC

Nowt wrong with the Decca cartridges Gingernutt.  They are still one of the finest MC transducers made and have a cult status and following. 

The issue about adaptation to stereo is pure and utter nonsense, so don't pay attention to such guff 

The Decca Stereo cartridges are designed as stereo cartridges, plain and simple, although they may share similarities with the mono carts.  The difference between mono and stereo carts is that in mono, only the signal amplitude is generated (side to side movement), whilst in stereo, the generators (coils and magnets) and suspension are also designed for up and down movement (left and right channels).  

Gingernutt

Well, you were right. The 20x is very impressive, even after 4 sides of lp.

Is a low output m/c always going to be better than a high output equivalent?
I'm not sure I understand but now the phono 2 has been reset to low, looks like thats where it will stay.

PAC

Well, you were right. The 20x is very impressive, even after 4 sides of lp.

Is a low output m/c always going to be better than a high output equivalent?
I'm not sure I understand but now the phono 2 has been reset to low, looks like thats where it will stay.

In a word "yes"

Lower distortion due to reduced mass, hence lower inertia.  Tracks better, is smoother in frequency response terms and generates better dynamics and transient response.  HO designs use more windings on the coils to generate more voltage and are more difficult to damp.  There's l;ittle point in spending even mid priced cash on a HO design when a LO version is available IMHO.

Gingernutt

But the mass of the cartridges 20x high and low are the same.
Ditto with the 10x5.
And so how would the tracking differ?

PAC

Tracking has a lot more controlling it than just mass.  The mass I'm referring to isn't the cartridge mass, its the mass of the cantilever complete with its generator coils.  Vertical tracking is partly dependant upon the compliance, inertia and the damping efficiency of the cantiliver assembly. If the cart has poor damping then distortion increases (think of it like a motorbike's rear suspension set up under damped.  it means that when travelling over bumps in the road, the tyre doesn't maintain as much contact with the road surface as it would do if the damping is correctly set up). A cartridge is the same.

As the lower output MC's have lower inertia, thanks to lower mass, their damping efficiency tends to be greater, thus vertical tracking tends to be better than HO models and their distortion lower.

If you want to use  HO MC, that's fine, it's after all your decision but there's no real advantage in a HOMC over a Moving magnet or moving Iron design.  In fact there are very few HOMC' that are as refined as a decent MM or MI cart.  The one advantage of a HOMC over a low output version is that you don't need a step up transformer so it's cheaper to implement.  Don't think you'll be getting the performance advantages of a LO version though because you simply wont.

Gingernutt

Thanks for that, i'm plesed with th 20xL i've got, certainly more refined than the high ouutput 10 i had before.
Now I can appreciate why.

Docfoster

Interesting that Paul. Thanks.
I used to have the high output version of gingernut's cart. Never heard the LO 20XL for comparison. Kinda wish I had now.
Mind you i recall the the 20XH being a lovely sounding cart' - very smooth and refined.

PAC

I've had a few different HO/LO MC carts including the Sumiko BPS EvoIII, Goldring Eroica and Dynavector DV20xl.  The Dyna was the best of the bunch, very refined and punchy.  The only problems I encountered were with sagging suspension (a bit like my last bike!).  For some odd reason the DV20xl seemed to be prone to it.

RobHolt

I think the DV20 got upgraded tips at the last model refresh. Now Micro Line IIRC which should really lift the performance. 

PAC

 Seems like a worthwhile upgrade and should help improve tracking too. 

Gingernutt

Well, I have spent a month with my new 20x2 low output, and it is amazing. Detailed, fabulous definition throughout the range, much better than the 10x , could be my best upgrade yet. Very much recommended.

RobHolt

Good to hear. It seems to tick all the right boxes for a good cartridge and i might well try one myself.

I've just splashed out on a new Audio Technica AT150MLx which is their top MM. I'm currently playing with the (original) Mission 774 and SME 3009 arms so playing with a few cartridge options.

The AT should arrive tomorrow (after having to pay import duty (  ) so I'll give my impressions when it lands.