Amazing Analogue & Decent Digital...Why?
Some comments in the AyreWave thread stimulated a train of thought about this (I have to run with these trains - they don't come very often!). In the atmosphere of AudioChews, this is not a 'Which is better...' type thread, rather an opportunity to eulogise if you wish.
I have long been curious - as I have never owned an analogue rig,
- what is a 'good' digital rig doing compared to a 'good' analogue setup? What is the difference? - note I phrase the question with analogue as the benchmark, following prevailing wisdom.
I had always hoped that much of the differences were in the way vinyl
was mastered compared to CD. I now see a large part of the problem with
CD as a medium is the way the hardware plays it - ie - CD players. Listening to my CD 'files' ripped & played back - through the same DAC as the CD player used is a completely different experience.
So - providing digital is done 'properly' - need there be a difference?
I have long been curious - as I have never owned an analogue rig,
- what is a 'good' digital rig doing compared to a 'good' analogue setup? What is the difference? - note I phrase the question with analogue as the benchmark, following prevailing wisdom.
I had always hoped that much of the differences were in the way vinyl
was mastered compared to CD. I now see a large part of the problem with
CD as a medium is the way the hardware plays it - ie - CD players. Listening to my CD 'files' ripped & played back - through the same DAC as the CD player used is a completely different experience.
So - providing digital is done 'properly' - need there be a difference?
Comments
I have a digital set-up and not an analogue one because I can't afford both - in terms of money, space & time. I chose digital not only because it is expedient.
I think your view is very interesting indeed - what does everyone else think?
8-X
Speaking as a digitiser(??) and analoguer I am going to sit on the fence. Both have their strengths and weaknesses and in many ways are not directly comparable. Likewise there are many variations of analogue and digital. Modern turntables and cartridges for me try very hard to mimick cds/digital. Like Alan I never really got cd's also hankering after the black stuff. However since getting the Nexus I am full signed up to digital in that a computer is the best way of palying 0's and 1's. It is the closest to analogue I have heard. The black stuff of course is staying - you can't beat that touchy feely experience !
My Apple magic mouse is pretty tactile though, with it's smooth glass top for caressing...
All right come on then he says jumping off his picket fence (ouch ! ). I'll give you mouse fondling - what about those pretty pictures you get on big album covers, nice big writing on sleeves, 180gm virgin vinyl , physical exercise to get off the sofa to change sides remove dust etc.. Need I go on !
Help Jim and Ben where are you at this time of need.
Whilst I play my Art Pepper on my 401/Decca
Regarding sound quality, I think one needs to be very specific about what's being compared (vinyl with cd, or DVD (-A or -V) or SACD or bluray or computer. And how much is the hypothetical budget...
Ben
I freely admit to enjoying the equipment almost as much as the music. I like - and always have - building things. I've always built or modified my kit. To me it's a hands on thing. Even when I got into computer audio in the late '90s I didn't just buy a PC I built one and set about getting its noise levels down as low as possible. I then tried numerous sound cards - internal and external.
In my system my vinyl side sounds a lot better than the digital. That's almost certainly because I've made more effort with the vinyl side - and not just spent more money. Were we to tie Dave up and slip a turntable into his system it probably wouldn't sound as good simply because he's made equally large efforts to make digital work well for him.
Digital is definitely the future - if only because very little vinyl is produced any more. Second hand LPs are difficult for two obvious reasons: quality and choice - I can't survive on Des O'Connors Greatest Hits from the charity shop.
What I do find is that digital is the great leveller. Most digital music is very good quality and even the bad quality (not content) is still listenable. Whereas vinyl has a wider range of quality, some LPs sound fantastic and some are dire. One thing most if not all enthusiasts will agree on is that digital discs (of whichever type) are not as good as streaming or HD based playback.
Plenty more will be said on this I'm sure.
Agree with both Jim and Ben here. The mechanical tweaking side of turntables is definitely part of my 'big boys toys' syndrome where hi-fi is concerned. Digital tweaking is not quite the same - more obscure and intangible but obviously equally achievable.
Vinyl sound improvements are probably finite whereas digital has I feel got a long way to go once we leave cds finally behind.
Jim finite was probably not quite what I mean't. My thinking is that the potential for digital to improve is greater than for vinyl. Computer technology develops almost expotentially with a much bigger market to serve. Vinyl is a relatively small niche market with less commercial incentive to develop.
But absolutely agree - live is the best system period !
Spending a 'sensible' amount on a 'decent' system - of either type, I would like to propose that with careful choices either can be satisfying. In the past it has been generally assumed that with a like for like budget analogue would always be superior.
It may be harder to build a digital system that is truly 'right', but I am beginning to suspect a digital front end can be truly reference standard for (a years) beer money.
I really don't think I am based on this last year. Is it heretical to consider both mediums on a par?
I'm really not sure I agree with you on the difficulty of building a 'truly correct' digital system.
Tough question Alan. I don't think they are for me. But then I'm wedded to vinyl and have been for 40 years at least - although it all got packed away for about 7 or 8 years and only came out again 3 years ago.
I don't view digital in the same way. I love it's convenience. Also the really high bitrate stuff is finally a reality though one can make the case for analogue having infinite bitrate and sampling frequency.
And Dave's point above echoes mine earlier re a level playing field. My system leans towards vinyl as it's what I prefer/care about/enjoy most. Am I right or wrong? I have no idea.
Tom Fletcher (God rest his fine soul) was always the king of analogies, and I'd like to try and emulate him with one of my own but I'm not in his league. What I would say, is that using a turntable there's a sense of occasion, a feeling of there being something about to happen - not too dissimilar to being at the start of a gig - but the actual listening experience whilst still great, can be matched (and bettered in some ways) by my digital front end.
Using the M'book etc etc I tend to get immersed into the musical experience, more than with the turntable, because there's less pre-amble, it just gets on with doing what it does with no fuss. I love it...but I love my record players too.
Spot on Dave!
That's at least a threefer
I reckon that's a fivesome !
I love the fact we can have this discussion with all the enthusiasm & passion we've seen, but without any sweeping statement or imposition of preference.
I would suppose that it is still easier to build a top notch vinyl system because of the prevailing demand & enthusiasm for such - this approach has a rich heritage that stands it in good stead. Just look at the Garrards, Lencos, Pioneers etc...as well as the current high end stuff for ridiculous sums. All this contributes to the perception that analogue is where the true quality lies.
As for digital, I agree Dave - buying a £500 CD player & hoping to have 'arrived' somewhere simply won't work. Neither, it seems, will spending £3k on the same. There are people who have heard £10k DCS front-ends that prefer what a £3k analogue front does, which only reinforces the perception that analogue is somehow superior for the 'serious music lover'. All that really proves is personal preference, or that the DCS may be a little teensy weensy bit - shall we say - overpriced?
In the real world, which is narrated on places like wigwam, people are building truly faithful analogue systems for under £2k, and they find a similarly expensive digital front-end in their own system is not as good. That is why I suppose building a 'proper' digital system is an elusive goal for many. In fact it seems possible to spend a few hundred quid on - say a Thorens or a Luxman or a Technics, a hundred quid on a Denon cart and similar on a phonostage and be completely set (my apologies to the analogue experts if I have betrayed my ignorance here). It is harder, judging from what I observe to be a general dissatisfaction with digital, to spend a similar £500ish figure & be as happy with digital.
For my part, my nagging doubts have only been allayed since going to a computer transport; the self same CDs (now ripped) sound so very different even through the same DAC as previously. I now am privileged to be listening to the closest thing I might ever hear to a reference DAC - and I bet it wouldn't float my boat in the same way if it was fed from a disc-spinner.
I think that computer audio - a mcmini may cost £400 second hand, some storage - another hundred or two, a DAC - say up to a grand - some software for a hundred or two - will be hard to 'beat' (wrong term but you know what I mean) and this illustrates the care & cost involved building a digital front-end is comparable to analogue. But in performance terms, while it may be easier to get analogue 'right' due to all the choices out there and the proliferation of second hand gear, with adequate care digital is by no means the poor relation. As Dave contends, the playing field could now be tilting the other way.
Absolutely right, especially that last bit. Both mediums are entirely worthy, it's just that nagging cultural doubt about digital that won't wash out just yet.
Maybe it is partly to do with mass produced consumer electronics, which have improved quality & vfm at the bottom, but have given digital a bad name with shoddy design, specs and indifferent SQ.
BTW, your MAC & KingRex really was the exception that proved the rule when it comes to preconceptions of digital.
Also the laws of diminishing returns as we all know kick in quickly. The difffernce between £500 and £5000 can in a proper system context sound very small.
nice discussion folk's,
in my years of messing with both digital and analogue i have found that i prefer the later , but i cant call it cd or vinyl because almost all modern vinyl releases are mastered via digital or even if the master is analogue, it is converted to digital at the cutting head on modern cutting machines so most LP's from the last few decades are actually digital in some way or another,
however when i play an analogue mastered and cut LP such as the Shaft soundtrack LP by Isaak Hayes on the Stax label first pressing i cant help but sit in awe of the presentation even via a humble rega P3 or older systemdek IIX ,and from a Garrard 401 with a modern arm i really do wonder why digital was ever adopted by the audio community
hold up a minute though ! as when listening to a good modern digital recording played via a file from a laptop and a good upsampling DAC and i can totally understand its appeal (still dont like cd though ),and its getting better all the time , couple this to the earlier mentioned analogue not being truly analogue on newer releases and the ever rising prices of vinyl plus all the recordings that are just unobtainable on vinyl and digital's appeal gets even greater,
happily some guys out there are hunting down old 'all analogue cutting machines ' and restoring them and record labels are freeing up analogue master tapes for reissues with some artists and labels trying to capture performances on both digital and analogue simultainiously, so we vinyl users have something to look forward to!
we also have HD digital music on the horizon and hitting the market as i type this ,literally!! ,Now if that lives up to its name we are heading for a very exiting time in home audio reproduction .
i will always use vinyl but right next to it will be digital both working to bring me music,
best regards folks,
matt