RPis, DLNA, servers and stuff

uglymusic

I've been a bit quiet about my digital front end recently, mainly because I couldn't get the RPi 3/IQaudio DAC combo to work!

I sat back and let the software elves get their stuff up to date before going any further (that's also Daveish for 'didn't have the time' ;-) ).

Anyway, a pukka RPi 3 version of Rune Audio is now available. I put it on the 3, but still couldn't get the DAC to work.

I swapped the DAC to the 2 and the HiFi Berry Digi+ board to the 3. Everything now worked. Except it didn't look as if either Pi was indexing the music on my server. Weird.

I was feeling a bit impatient so I decided to go down the DLNA route. I'd noticed that Synology's own server seemed to be DLNA compliant, so I tried that rather than muck about with Minimserver again.

So currently I'm using DLNA to stream music, with the Synology server, Linn Kinsky on the iPhone and Rune Audio on the 3, feeding the Young DAC.

The 2 is currently sidelined, as I stupidly unplugged its power supply without powering down Volumio and the software seems to have been corrupted. I'm probably going to install RA on the 2, too, as I notice the AirPlay availability on the 3 is much better. That's for another day. And then I can get on with getting the IQaudio DAC burnt in.

BTW I'm not too keen on Kinsky. It's a bit klunky.

shoom

Hi Dave

Sounds like you've found a neat solution.

I've not tried Kinsky but Bubble next DS for Android is anything but klunky in fact it's very slick indeed.

Moode have a test image for PI3 with airplay which may be more successful than Rune which I did get working on PI3 with USB OP.

Worth a try.

uglymusic

Yeah. It seems to work. Maybe I'll put Minimserver on the NAS sometime, but at the moment Synology's own server seems to be doing everything I want.

I don't have an Android device, so I guess I'll be trying out the various options on the Apple Store.

I don't think I was clear enough about Airplay. All three (RA, Volumio and Moode) offer Airplay, but Volumio has a habit of dropping the connection, or not even appearing as an Airplay connection. RA on the RPi3 seems much more stable. So I'm going to see if it's RA being better or the greater horsepower of the 3 that is doing the trick. So I'll install RA on the 2 and see what happens.

shoom

I found Rune to be pretty stable but needed a few goes to get the wifi working but sound wise there's not much in the three of them.

I've not tried the new Moode software so that may change.

I'll keep you posted.

uglymusic

On the RPi3 it worked first time, so fingers crossed it'll be equally cooperative on the 2.

I'm sure you'll get to Moode before I do, so I await your report, sir!

uglymusic

I think I've found a good iOS app. It's called Sesam Music and it's available on the App Store (where else?). It's free and has an ad at the bottom, but I'll put up with that just for the wonderfulness of the rest of it. You can see it's newly developed and not based on something creaky from the past.

shoom

Good Find

The free add stuff usually appears on free ware but TBH it's interesting how quickly the eye tunes it out.

Bubble has one which I don't pay much attention to either.

Finding a good control point ap really does make the whole thing a pleasant experience.

Nice one

uglymusic

Yup. I'm warming to this DNLA stuff now I have a working set-up and a decent app.

shoom

Yup if you have a NAS and can do DNLA then it makes perfect sense to use it.

I'm assuming that you have your PI set up as a renderer which is cool and gets away from having a HDD attached to it which can only be a good thing.

Is the PI wireless. if not then that could be the next thing to try as the LAN has a bad rep (same power bus as the USB ports) on the PI. the PI3 gets better having built in wifi with it's own bus so using it leaves the USB ports free to just play music without the added noise from the LAN connection.

it's so much more convenient (and that counts for digital IMHO) than having the PC screen on for playing music.

I'd not go back to that.

 

uglymusic

The Pi is now set up as a renderer. 

 I've never had a USB drive connected to it. MPD indexed the files on the NAS.

The Pi is wireless. 

shoom

B-)

uglymusic

OK. Back on the case.

RPi2 now Runed and happily playing some music through the IQaudio DAC+. I'm going to leave it until next weekend before I put it through the big rig and compare it with the RPi3/Young DAC so it's all nicely cooked through.

But the surprise is how much faster RA is than Volumio on my 2. Has anyone else (Shaun?) noticed this?

shoom

But the surprise is how much faster RA is than Volumio on my 2. Has anyone else (Shaun?) noticed this?

Yes I've found some differences between the 3 programs Volumio being the worst.

But V2 should be out soon so let's see what happens with that.

uglymusic

V2 still hasn't arrived almost a year after it was announced. Things happen slowly in Open Source land!

Brumjam

I've reverted back to using a Pi 2 for streaming music to my DAC. On mine I've installed Roon Audio (bridge version). Unfortunately I still need to run Roon Server on my Macbook which does the heavy lifting in terms of processing power.

The Roon user interface is a thing of beauty. It's light years ahead of Squeezelite or any other software I've used, particularly if you have a Tidal subscription.

uglymusic

I saw that you you set up an RPi as a Roon 'client' the other day, when I was reading up more about the little fruity pastries.

I've just been using AirPlay to stream Tidal to the RPis. It's definitely more clunky, but there is some financial saving, I believe ;-)

Brumjam

Indeed. Your route is about £85 a year cheaper .

uglymusic

Me cheap? Of course :-)

shoom

I've been having a play with one of my PI2 as a DNLA server using Moode 2.5 and I must say that it sounds superb.

Streams to my Jplay set up Via a WD Mybook powered 2TB HDD upsampling to 24/96 Via LAN at the moment but i'm going to be trying WIFI next.

A cheap trick for NAS work and sounds way better than HDD directly into my control pc..

I think I may try Raspian Jessie with Minimserver next once I have my head around it.

It also sounds better than my ageing TS119 NAS but the advantage may lie in using a much newer Linux Distro on the PI compared to the one installed on the Qnap.

So many nice things to be done with a PI

uglymusic

So many variables, so little time... :-)

shoom

Yes Indeed

I found that over time that the Moode based server was a little prone to freezing playback so I thought it about time to try the Minimserver/Raspbian Jessie approach.

My first go with Linux proper and TBH it filled me with a little trepidation.

So after downloading Raspbian Jessie from

https://www.raspberrypi.org/downloads/

and errrr borrowing the portable HDMI enabled TV and Copying the Raspbian  image file to an 8gb card I was good to go.

Plugged in the PI and switched on

Ok booted just fine.

Downloaded the Minimserver software for the PI  and following the instructions here

http://minimserver.com/install-raspbian.html

BTW I found that the first command line cd/home/pi  did not work so I replaced it with pwd which brings up the home/pi  directory. Then it was all cut and pasting in the command lines.

About 15 mins of work to get Minimserver installed and running.

So 1 x PI 1 x powered 2 TB HDD and a network connection (I’m using LAN) and a cheap server is born.

I’m using Minimwatch to keep an eye on Minimserver now that it’s running headless.

http://minimserver.com/ug-control.html

It works really well with Bubble DS Next and serving into my windows based set up sounds superb.

Better and much cheaper than my NAS or any other options that I’ve tried to date. The PI is also running on a bang up to date Distro which sounds like it’s helping quite a bit.

I was really expecting that zero Linux know how was going to mean plenty of cussing but it really was pretty easy TBH.

Seems to be rock solid and super slick.

Next up Jessie light,

uglymusic

You've been busy!

I always find the best approach to messing about with Linux is to cut and paste the commands so I don't mess them up ;-)

shoom

Yes cut and paste for me as my Linux know how is zero.

The PI has turned out to be a pretty useful all rounder.

I'm pretty sure that a complete streaming set up with Moode/Volumio/Rune as the renderer would sound great and cost very little compared to the commercial offerings.

And all of the software is free.

does not get much better.

uglymusic

shoom said:

<snip>

I'm pretty sure that a complete streaming set up with Moode/Volumio/Rune as the renderer would sound great and cost very little compared to the commercial offerings.

And all of the software is free.

does not get much better.

Yup. That's what I'm putting in place here. Pis in main system, office and (coming) bedroom systems. Possibly in the kitchen, where I have a pair of powered computer speakers and an Apple AirPort Express, plus maybe a Pi each for the two TVs.

It may also be the excuse to get a more up-to-date NAS, although I may look into what RAID possibilities there are with a Pi and external disks. However, I do like the Synology set-up a lot, so may decide against the Pi lash-up on that front. The jury is not only out, but hasn't yet heard the evidence!

shoom

Do try the PI server first

It's really pretty good.

I've installed Raspbian/Minimserver on a P3 and it's a bit better load speed wise but sound? well I cant hear much difference.

It's easy to set up and great with bubble to use.

tried Jessie Lite and well errrr um needs to much know how for me ATM but the standard Jessie has a usable desktop which makes things easy for a dunce like me.

may be worth trying befor splashing the cash on a new NAS which would most likely come with older software and plenty of stuff installed that you's never use.

I'd be happy to help out with the set up if needed.

you have all of what you need to try.

the SQ is pretty spectacular IMHO.

uglymusic

I just found this:

http://projpi.com/diy-home-projects-with-a-raspberry-pi/raspberry-pi-raid-array-with-usb-hdds/ 

and this:

http://www.techradar.com/how-to/computing/how-to-build-your-own-raspberry-pi-nas-1315968

which is probably the route I'll go, as I'll want a RAID array similar to that I have on the NAS.

Thanks for the offer of help, BTW.

The SQ I'm getting at the moment with the Pi3/Rune as the renderer is pretty spectacular, so I'll be agreeing with you :-)

shoom

Both of those look pretty cool and option 1 the least fiddly would be my choice.

I've set up a Minimserver  for the house system which has a few Moode PI's with DAC hats dotted around the house and it works just great.

TBH I've tried the PI thing just for something to play with but it's waaaaay better than I could have expected.

I think that the a**e may have just fallen out of the expensive server market.

I have a WD 2tb HDD which cost £76 quid and is self power so just plugs into the PI without the hub spaghetti so it's pretty neat.

and great value with the rest of the bits and the whole thing comes in under £150.

I have a Perspex bone case for the PI BTW which looks nice enough.

crazy compared to ready built and overpriced boxes IMHO.

The SQ for the cash is unbelievable.

uglymusic

This weekend I've got a few more bricks in the digital wall.

The RPi 2 and IQaudio DAC are now in the Big Rig. Minimserver is installed on the NAS and is currently doing its indexing thing, while Bliss is up and running, too. Let's see if they get on.

shoom

Great work Dave.

I really like Minimserver

It's really nice and very light weight. just perfect for NAS work.

did you install Minimwatch on your networked PC/MAC? if not then it's well worth doing to save a little messing about with rescanning and stuff.

Keep us posted.

uglymusic

I've gone back to the Synology server because I can't find a control point that I like. The one I've been using doesn't see minimserver. The minimserver website suggests Linn and Naim apps, which either don't see minimserver, are too slow for words or in the case of Naim doesn't recognise anything but Naim renderers!

If I really fell in love with minimserver, then I'd probably buy a cheap Android tablet, but as the jury is out, I'm not sure that's going to happen.

And, yes, I have minimwatch on my Mac.

Bliss seems to be slowing the NAS down, so I think it'll go back on to one of my old Mac minis and run from there as it was before. Later I'll try running it on an RPi, just for fun.

So quite a few steps sideways, I think.

shoom

Grab yourself an android baby :-)

Bubble is just a superb piece of software (quick and slick) and they can be had pretty cheaply from Amazon orrrrrr

Argos sell off there return stock on Ebay (yup that's right) and I've had a couple of Asus tablets from them at crazy low prices.

I have Kazoo on my Control PC and TBH I'm not so keen but it's a good test program.

don't give up on the streaming set up yet.

IMHO it makes Digital make sense.

uglymusic

I'm not giving up on streaming. The problem is using Minimserver (not strictly Minimserver, but the stuff needed to make the system as a whole work and be a joy to use), rather than the Synology server.

I have a perfectly functioning DLNA set-up, but based on a different server. 

uglymusic

Does my previous post read as a bit grumpy? Wasn't written that way, but having just re-read it...

shoom

No not in the least grumpy.

But I know that Computer audio can have it's moments of frustration so just encouraging you along a bit.

IMHO if you like what you have then stick with it.

You know it makes sense.

BTW the king of grumpy posts title is already taken.

by Me :-)

and as an aside I'll be helping a friend set up his Synology NAS (now that's the blind leading the blind) at the weekend so it will be interesting to try their DNLA server.

uglymusic

Until the Minimserver route is served (see what I did there?) properly within Appleland, it's too much of a PITA for any extra features.

I'll no doubt come back to it sometime. It's installed on my NAS, so it's only a case of running the thing!

If you need any help with the Syno, give me a shout. 

shoom

''help with the Syno, give me a shout''

Thanks Muchly.

My friend and I are working on the basis that 2 Dullards may = a full brain cell between them.

On Appleland I could well be that your CP software does not recognise openhome servers which is of course how Minimserver functions.

Bubble recognises all servers on my network even the plinky plonky twonky one that came with the QNAP and Jriver DNLA also along with Acet's one.

What I really applaud is the time and effort that you've taken to actually try for yourself.

Really good work.

uglymusic

One of the Linn apps does work, but it's like like having your dentist use a hand drill with a rusty bit in terms of User Experience. A couple, including the Naim one, recognise Minimserver but not the RPi.

You're right. It's finding a CP that has a good UX and talks open home that has so far defeated me. I've tried about eight of them so far.

The Syno job should be very simple. Just install the Audio Server from DSM. I've got Media Server running, too as I have movies on the NAS as well. That defo speaks DLNA; I'm not 100% certain if the Audio Server will do the trick alone. Install it and see. 

Also, there's a Syno app for phones/tablets called DS Audio which sees the RPi and can act as a DLNA control point.

That is all ;-)

shoom

Great Advice.

I'll probably be able to muddle my way though it and also install Minimserver just for the choice.

I'll take the PI server along just for kicks.

I'll had a looksee at audio and media servers to see what they do and they seem to be web based Gui's which i'm not so keen on. I find them a little slow compared to an ''on local network'' service.

but let's see how they work out in use.

We're going to be using Jriver on a w10 laptop as the renderer (not my choice) but it does act as a more traditional UPNP device.

I use Jplay which is Openhome so for me that part is important but it's not really fit and forget which he needs.

all good fun

uglymusic

Minimserver is easy to install on the Syno. Make sure he's upgraded to DSM 6, and grab Java 8 rather than Java 7. My problems turned out to be to do with the CPs, not the server.

They do have Web GUIs, but they are local, hosted on the Syno. But both servers are set and forget from within DSM.

shoom

Thanks again

Ok on the to do list.

uglymusic

It makes a change for me to be able to tell you something ;-)

shoom

uglymusic said:

It makes a change for me to be able to tell you something ;-)

Nope

DVD ripping software is the next question.

uglymusic

Handbrake.

shoom

I had a nice weekend getting my Friends new DS216j with 3TB WD Red up and running.

The DS software is great and the install was pretty straight forward and much like Windows to use.

It's set up using the DS's built in media server with Jriver on his lap top and Gizmo as the CP.

Sounds nice and he's pretty pleased with the performance.

He paid £220 for the NAS and red HDD which seems like pretty good value.

Relief is my main feeling TBH as setting up the Qnap seemed much more of a faf from what I remember.

uglymusic

Cool. The Syno is supposed to be the easiest of the NASs to set up. I've only had my DS411slim and a Drobo (the least said about that the better), but I can generally get it to do what I want.

Interesting you went for the Syno media server. Was that for simplicity, or because it did everything your friend needed. 

£220 for the NAS and 3TB disk sounds like a great deal. WD Red does seem the way to go these days.

What are you cooking up this week?

shoom

We Decided on the DS Media server because

a) it sounded good

b) hopefully needs no time under the bonnet.

I was a little reluctant to go with Minimserver because it's a little tricky to set up(I've set quite a few up but Steve's a bit of a novice). I was just thinking on the what if it goes wrong train and it seemed prudent to go with the built in software.

He's more into the no hastle playback style so the DS server made sense IMHO.

Later we may try MServer but not right now.

He had Jriver running from a USB HDD so the next trick may be to try Jplay controlled by Jriver.

Yes a lot of server for the cash and easy to set up and use. took around 1/2 hour to do the whole thing.

Then loading the music files (what a drag) which was easy also but time consuming.

Now he needs the dark side of digital

cooking up some PSU experiments with the superb Regen but Chris needs to catch up a little before I post.

The Devil will find work for idle hands to do.

So said Morrissey

uglymusic

shoom said:

We Decided on the DS Media server because

a) it sounded good

<snip>

Yes a lot of server for the cash and easy to set up and use. took around 1/2 hour to do the whole thing.

<snip>

The Devil will find work for idle hands to do.

So said Morrissey

You've heard sonic differences between server software? Are you saying I may get better (or worse) sonic performance from Minimserver on my NAS rather than the Syno one?

The ease of use is one of the reasons I've been contemplating another Syno, rather than setting up an RPi as a RAID NAS - although I have thought of using an RPi as a server with a single USB drive and using the Syno as the onsite backup.

You can't mention Morrisey's name around here!

shoom

I've not tried the sinology in my set up but I've heard some differences between the PI server running MServer and the Qnap running the same for sure.

To my ears the Qnap TS119 sounds a little ''limp'' compared to the PI.

Why not set up a PI server with a powered (hub or otherwise) USB drive and see what you think.

If you have the HDD it's a cheap experiment and not to hard to do. If you have a spare PI even cheaper.

but I did enjoy the simplicity of the Syno

''Are you saying I may get better (or worse) sonic performance from Minimserver on my NAS rather than the Syno one?''

Yes could be but who can say without trying it?

uglymusic

shoom said:

I've not tried the sinology in my set up but I've heard some differences between the PI server running MServer and the Qnap running the same for sure.

To my ears the Qnap TS119 sounds a little ''limp'' compared to the PI.

Why not set up a PI server with a powered (hub or otherwise) USB drive and see what you think.

If you have the HDD it's a cheap experiment and not to hard to do. If you have a spare PI even cheaper.

but I did enjoy the simplicity of the Syno

''Are you saying I may get better (or worse) sonic performance from Minimserver on my NAS rather than the Syno one?''

Yes could be but who can say without trying it?

That's a hardware difference, not a software one ;-)

I think I can free up the hardware for trying out the RPi server, but it means if it is better than the Syno, I have the CP problem with Minimserver again!

Is it worth the time and effort, I wonder? (I do know that's the problem with running the RPi server, anyway, But WTH!).

shoom

''That's a hardware difference, not a software one''

yup

I also compared the Minimserver set up on the Qnap with it's twonky wonky server and also heard a difference.

Maybe the SQ difference I heard had something to do with how processor hungry the software is.

I'm inclined to believe that software with low processor requirements (loads) can sound better and have based my PC playback set up around that idea.

Maybe I'm wrong on that but without experimentation everything stops.

I can also hear differences between playback software so why not the server stuff?

uglymusic

Apropos not a lot, Twonky seems to have a bad rep, from what I've read.

I think I'm with you on processor load. I wonder, then, if a business-grade Syno would sound better than my ageing home/small business grade one? Or whether we should be building Linux-based NASs based on powerful PC boards?

I think it's easier to make a case for playback software than server software. It's almost on the level of 'does Ethernet cable affect sound?'. I don't know, BTW.