I stumbled across this thread, and found a lot of friends from ''pink fish''. I saw a bit of "chris-said-this-and-chris-said that'' a few pages ago.
I am the chris, and my opinion isn't anything special. The bake off we did was a while ago, and I did it very selfishly - to find which sub £1k DAC I prefered through USB and a potential computer based audio source. I had a laptop on windows and ''squeezebox 3'' at the time, and I knew it could be bettered.
With the benefit of hindsight and time, here are my recollections and current feelings, for anyone that gives a rat's butt
V-Dac and Squeezebox 3. I couldn't actually hear any difference. They were both 'okay''.
Emotiva Dac Bouncy and enjoyable. Stupidly good (external) build quality for the cash. A budget audiophile product I thought. You could kill a small rodent if you threw the remote at them.
Rega Dac. Bouncy and enjoyable. A bit like the Emotiva, but a bit better. Cant play high-res over USB . Somehow reminds me of ''tiger'' from winnie the pooh. That's what it sounds like. My favourite up to UK price £500.
Musical Fidelity M1. Flat and uninspiring, but at the same time neutral and ''correct''. A white slice of bread with the crust cut off, and nothing on top.
Young Dac Music came to life, clear, but with bottom end. It actually got a round of applause on the group-review. It didn't do so well with inputs other than USB in comparison to the other dacs on ''round 2'' - but if you want a USB dac that can do high-res, its a short-lister.
W4S In britain it seemed dearer than the Young Dac, so it had to sound better (through USB for my personal interest). It sounded ''more grown up'', less pacey.. kind of typical of the sabre chip. I'd have been very happy with this DAC. If in your country it costs the same as the Young, try both. My jury is hung (undecided). Different sounding to the Young... the W4S is more red wine, less red bull and vodka.
Audiolab CDQ Sorry, I thought it underperformed. I may aswell be honest. It wasn't bad at all.. it's just AS A DAC the W4S with the same chip sounded a little better. However, the ''filters'' showed their worth.. it went from '' a bit crap'' to ...ooh, actually that's quite good.. just by changing filters. I wish we'd had the new Audiolab MDAC at the time, as this was a Dac comparison, and this was the only CD player. Id reccomend (for a DAC) people try an MDAC and not the CD player if they don't need it. Its more money for a CD tray. Try the MDAC vs W4S if you already prefer one or the other and want a similar comparison.
Calyx. If I lived in a country where it was a cheaper price, I'd have had it - it sounded the best dac on USB I thought. It was crisp and clear like the Young, but had .. something extra, a slightly better sound I thought. My worries were... 1) Calyx who?!?! who are you?! 2) warranty repairs in Korea?! no thanks.. but ooo. I like your shiny aluminium case.
Antelope Dac Sounded big fat and chewy. Not a presentation I aspire to, but many liked it. I prefer Young and Calyx... but that sums it all up.. it's like a glass of wine - I'm not here to tell you what type to enjoy.
Oh yes, the Heed Dac. Sounded a bit crap , no thanks. I'd have rather had the Rega at 1/3 the price.
Very much worthwhile in fact, I wouldn't be without it.
Hi Chris, thanks for dropping in. Your test is very interesting, because the only other DAC in the same price region that interests me would have been the Calyx, and had I been looking to pay full RRP on the Young I would have had to hear the Calyx first as they cost the same.
(Now I am interested in the MYTEK 192 DAC, also about £1200, but I won't be hearing that any time soon I think.)
If I was buying new, now, the Audiolab MDAC would be the first on my audition list. The only thing that stops me seriously contemplating selling the Young for an MDAC is the lack of 192khz support, which is really really lame on my part as I only have 6 or 7 192 recordings. The functionality of the MDAC and the chance to drop my pre altogether is a very attractive proposition (which the Mytek seems to address).
I should really stop window shopping and just stick with what I have - I reckon the newest DACs offer tremendous bang for buck and bring performance that was uber high end three years ago down to the 1k mark. Simon suggested that the only real denominator between any of the current 'decent' DACs is personal taste, and I quite like that point of view. Because I can't afford a Weiss...
I am wondering if dropping the pre in itself is a good enough reason to consider jumping ship. Running the Young from A+ with digital volume control is still better than even my Lightspeed attenuator.
I tend to think the difference between the two DACs per se is likely very minor.
i'm probably the only one here who is not entirely convinced yet if MDAC is actually a better sounding product than young. i had a luck to have a very good PSU for young which cleared a top that sounds pierced with the stock wall wart PSU.
i'm trying to get accustomized to MDAC sound in my system which is a bit soft sounding (tubes + horns) and there are still some areas where i'm not yet impressed, most notably HF extension (very different from young) as well as a bit of bloom in the bass. it certainly sounds natural and easy on ear in the most critical mid spectrum but let's see if the sound will change in the course of burning in.
just as with young, one should be very very careful about matching. i would say young will awake laid back systems and MDAC will be a good solution for too bright or unpleasantly hi-rez systems.
ergonomy is completely another matter, it's a great feature to be able to drop the premp off.
With the Young now sold and Mrs H nagging me to get a CD player so that she can play some music in the day whilst im at work (she's not computer literate!) Im on the verge of pulling the trigger on an Audiolab 8200 CDQ, this will give me the connectivity to the mac and allow for CD playback (still got some 500 cd's), Ive been offered a decent deal on the CDQ and I sold the Young for what I was asking for it so cant grumble.
Im not as serious as I used to be listening to every nuance in the recording hoping to hear a pin drop, this has come to fruition since I started to listen to vinyl again and found the whole vinyl experience a bit more musical, if that makes sense?!
Anyway I cant see the CDQ being a bad buy, probably not up to the Young class but I guess its not going to be a million miles away all the same, it will also give me the option to use the M88 Integrated valve amp as a power amp with the CDQ acting as a digital pre if I want to, or on the other hand I can use the balanced valve inputs on M88 and plug the CDQ into them, as of yet I aint had nothing plugged into them!
So thats where Im at with the digital front end at the moment, unless anyone elase can think of a reason for me pulling the trigger then LMK
This is interesting to me, as I am still idly intending to demo an MDAC. Yours is the first dissenting voice I've heard so far. The 6 moons review (page three) talks of the high treble energy from the Young, and I agree it sounds too strident with the stock wall-wart. I will have to hear the MDAC myself, but my suspicion is just losing the pre-amp from the system could reap a degree of benefit that outweighs any slight deficiency in the DAC.
i'm probably the only one here who is not entirely convinced yet if MDAC is actually a better sounding product than young. i had a luck to have a very good PSU for young which cleared a top that sounds pierced with the stock wall wart PSU.
i'm trying to get accustomized to MDAC sound in my system which is a bit soft sounding (tubes + horns) and there are still some areas where i'm not yet impressed, most notably HF extension (very different from young) as well as a bit of bloom in the bass. it certainly sounds natural and easy on ear in the most critical mid spectrum but let's see if the sound will change in the course of burning in.
just as with young, one should be very very careful about matching. i would say young will awake laid back systems and MDAC will be a good solution for too bright or unpleasantly hi-rez systems.
ergonomy is completely another matter, it's a great feature to be able to drop the premp off.
Nope. I'm still very happy with the Young and PSU I have, and have no interest in going out to audition the MDAC. If someone brings one round, I'll listen to it, but I'm not interested in what seem to be marginal improvements and/or trade-offs.
I bought the Young with a general idea of keeping it for a couple of years in my main system. By that stage, I hope I'm not looking to spend four or five times as much to get a real improvement.
You will likely be correct in assuming the price for an improvement will come down. Cambridge Audio have just released another DACMagic (the second new on in as many months) which is slightly cheaper than the outgoing one and probably better. It now supports 192 khz over USB, while the old model struggled with USB full stop. I'd bet it's very good.
The Asus DAC (with a tiger on it!) is getting very fine reports now, and that's only £300.
In five years, we'll have Weiss & Berkeley beaters for £500! (But it probably won't look as cool as the Young)
don't take my word for granted, i often have slightly different findings than most of the crowd due to the idiosyncrasies of my system. i've already caused once a big forum stir when i post my opinion that naim nDAC heavily demolished stock young in my room and i wasn't alone there.
however i really can't encourage anyone to try MDAC or other DAC if young sits firmly in a someone's system because it can sound very good with a good PSU if the surroundings are right - like softer, darker systems with a slight HF roll off. but it's pretty inferior with the stock wall wart thing. i don't get it why it was released without a properly elaborated power supply.
i've took a MDAC on loan to hear what the buzz is all about and to see how my system sounds without a preamp and i'm a preamp fetishist (if there's a box i've changed a ton so far, it's a preamp). within this context it's a clever step forward - my thoughts are it's digital preamp and price that are the main things why MDAC is such a terrific buy. OTOH, young beats it for PC audio/USB/hi-rez only use.
soundwise, young and MDAC both have strengths and weaknesses on their own that can be easily masked within the convenient system. we'll see what JW new PSU for MDAC will bring - and yes, all my findings are related to young used with a dedicated PSU based on teddy pardo's superegs just tweaked to the max, used with a custom made TVC as an analogue volume control. could it also be that MDAC is not yet 100% run in and stable, but i don't think i hear it changing the sound yet. let's see....
soon we'll try MDAC vs nDAC and this will be an interesting test...
I dont even know what geddes summas are. Time for a google!
One thing I have yet to revisit since acquiring a lightspeed, is what advantage there is is to chopping out the pre and running the Young directely into my power amp. This was quite worthwhile (if a hassle) whan I used my pimped EVA 2, using Audirvana + software volume control (which now has more adjustment on it).
I wonder if the (plainly better) lightspeed negates some of that difference, though I do find the RCA sockets provide a very loose fit for my cables. I dont know what difference that might make, if at all.
trouble is, I get so little free time with my system now that I dont want to be experimenting when I do get a chance to listen to it.
Anu, was it you who was selling that uber cool LDR (Myth) a few months back? I so nearly did on that one....
yes, as one of my final plans is to get a one-box DAC-LDR preamp by myth. they do have two separate products however i can get it custom made.
10Y SET monoblocks plus geddes summa clones.
Does it make a lot of noise?
in which sense, can it play loud (sure - it's 98db/w/m sensitive system) or does it hum (of course not, these are the serious amps, more quite than most of the solid state out there as they are built for my other speakers - 113db/w/m....:))
Re noise: I thought I'd sown the kernel of misunderstanding as I posted :-)
I meant 'how loud does it go?'. The amps have a fairly low output, don't they? My memory is also playing tricks. I thought the summas weren't that sensitive. So there you go. Shoulda Googled first... :-)
I stumbled across this thread, and found a lot of friends from ''pink fish''. I saw a bit of "chris-said-this-and-chris-said that'' a few pages ago.
I am the chris, and my opinion isn't anything special. The bake off we did was a while ago, and I did it very selfishly - to find which sub £1k DAC I prefered through USB and a potential computer based audio source. I had a laptop on windows and ''squeezebox 3'' at the time, and I knew it could be bettered.
With the benefit of hindsight and time, here are my recollections and current feelings, for anyone that gives a rat's butt
V-Dac and Squeezebox 3. I couldn't actually hear any difference. They were both 'okay''.
Emotiva Dac Bouncy and enjoyable. Stupidly good (external) build quality for the cash. A budget audiophile product I thought. You could kill a small rodent if you threw the remote at them.
Rega Dac. Bouncy and enjoyable. A bit like the Emotiva, but a bit better. Cant play high-res over USB . Somehow reminds me of ''tiger'' from winnie the pooh. That's what it sounds like. My favourite up to UK price £500.
Musical Fidelity M1. Flat and uninspiring, but at the same time neutral and ''correct''. A white slice of bread with the crust cut off, and nothing on top.
Young Dac Music came to life, clear, but with bottom end. It actually got a round of applause on the group-review. It didn't do so well with inputs other than USB in comparison to the other dacs on ''round 2'' - but if you want a USB dac that can do high-res, its a short-lister.
W4S In britain it seemed dearer than the Young Dac, so it had to sound better (through USB for my personal interest). It sounded ''more grown up'', less pacey.. kind of typical of the sabre chip. I'd have been very happy with this DAC. If in your country it costs the same as the Young, try both. My jury is hung (undecided). Different sounding to the Young... the W4S is more red wine, less red bull and vodka.
Audiolab CDQ Sorry, I thought it underperformed. I may aswell be honest. It wasn't bad at all.. it's just AS A DAC the W4S with the same chip sounded a little better. However, the ''filters'' showed their worth.. it went from '' a bit crap'' to ...ooh, actually that's quite good.. just by changing filters. I wish we'd had the new Audiolab MDAC at the time, as this was a Dac comparison, and this was the only CD player. Id reccomend (for a DAC) people try an MDAC and not the CD player if they don't need it. Its more money for a CD tray. Try the MDAC vs W4S if you already prefer one or the other and want a similar comparison.
Calyx. If I lived in a country where it was a cheaper price, I'd have had it - it sounded the best dac on USB I thought. It was crisp and clear like the Young, but had .. something extra, a slightly better sound I thought. My worries were... 1) Calyx who?!?! who are you?! 2) warranty repairs in Korea?! no thanks.. but ooo. I like your shiny aluminium case.
Antelope Dac Sounded big fat and chewy. Not a presentation I aspire to, but many liked it. I prefer Young and Calyx... but that sums it all up.. it's like a glass of wine - I'm not here to tell you what type to enjoy.
Oh yes, the Heed Dac. Sounded a bit crap , no thanks. I'd have rather had the Rega at 1/3 the price.
I was talking and asking Alan about the Calyx DAC, the Young DAC and the Audiolab MDAC, and trying to figure out which of the three would be the better choice in terms of sound quality via USB input, i dont care about preamp and other stuff besides sound quality via usb and RCA for outputs.
Good pointers and helpful ones about teh DAC list you made
I can't say what will sound best, because I haven't actually heard all three. In terms of value for money I'd plump for the MDAC, but if the extra features aren't important then it's between the Calyx & Young = both USB specialists (the MDAC is currently hamstrung by it's older USB implementation).
I don't regret having the Young at all, but some reviews suggest the Calyx may be a little better - it's probably down to personal preference as much as anything. I really am fond of the Young, but it really becomes something special with the uprated power supply - which is another expense to factor in to your budget.
Some time ago (long, long ago), buried somewhere in the nether regions of this thread, we discussed an issue with the first release of the Young. It was later corrected with a firmware update.
It was best described as 'crackle' on transients, and only seemed to occur, albeit momentarily, on hot modern recordings. It was almost fully corrected by running one's software player -3dB. I am still unconvinced that it was 100% sorted, so I still run Audirvana+ -1dB.
Just bringing this up again, as I had forgotten it:
The Young DAC (mk1) appears to have retained it's issue with some 'hot' recordings over USB. By which I mean the signal seems to overload something in the DAC, resulting in an audible 'crackle'. It could be a problem on the digital side, but it happens to sound just like a solid state amplifier when it clips - a jarring crackly distortion. I have only ever heard this on vocals, and on poorer recordings at that.
The latest offending album was First Aid Kit - The Lions Roar. On the opening track, the sound is harsh and fatiguing, an issue which appears and then fades throughout the album. On vocals in the chorus of the title track, where there is some real energy, the vocal audibly (and unpleasantly) distorts. (This is best heard at low volume, which reduces the rooms effect on acoustics.)
Going back to my software player, I reinstated a previous setting I used to compensate: Cap the maximum volume the player will output by 3dB. Audirvana uses 64bit Izotope processing to do this with no loss to sound quality. This completely cures all issues with this particular album by First Aid Kit.
I don't have too many bad recordings with which to replicate the fault and I haven't heard it again since making my adjustment. I rather suspect the output stage is clipping into my pre-amplifier. Why so quick to point the finger at the DAC then? Because this is the third Young I have had, all of which displayed this issue. The first was awful, the second was improved, the third (this one) is very much better. I have used the Young DAC into a variety of amplifiers and pre-amps, including passives. Initially, quite a few albums caused the Young to 'clip' but with each replacement the issue improved. Now I think this album may be the only one I have to trip it up.
On some days the system has sounded tiring and left me unsatisfied, probably because of this very issue. If leaving my software player set at -3dB cures it, so much the better as it really is sounding very fine indeed now. If anyone else with a mk1 Young feels a nagging pang of dissatisfaction with their system sound quality, I suggest cutting your software player volume by 3dB.
Wasn't that supposedly fixed in software, many moons ago? Certainly I sent my original young back to Italy and received a new one that was much less prone to this artifact. Though to be honest a long string of 0db samples still caused it.
Why the he'll they dont just force a minus 3db max level is beyond me. It's the reason I moved to the mdac.
Comments
Keith.
I am the chris, and my opinion isn't anything special.
The bake off we did was a while ago, and I did it very selfishly - to find which sub £1k DAC I prefered through USB and a potential computer based audio source. I had a laptop on windows and ''squeezebox 3'' at the time, and I knew it could be bettered.
With the benefit of hindsight and time, here are my recollections and current feelings, for anyone that gives a rat's butt
V-Dac and Squeezebox 3.
I couldn't actually hear any difference. They were both 'okay''.
Emotiva Dac
Bouncy and enjoyable. Stupidly good (external) build quality for the cash. A budget audiophile product I thought. You could kill a small rodent if you threw the remote at them.
Rega Dac.
Bouncy and enjoyable. A bit like the Emotiva, but a bit better. Cant play high-res over USB
Musical Fidelity M1.
Flat and uninspiring, but at the same time neutral and ''correct''. A white slice of bread with the crust cut off, and nothing on top.
Young Dac
Music came to life, clear, but with bottom end. It actually got a round of applause on the group-review. It didn't do so well with inputs other than USB in comparison to the other dacs on ''round 2'' - but if you want a USB dac that can do high-res, its a short-lister.
W4S
In britain it seemed dearer than the Young Dac, so it had to sound better (through USB for my personal interest). It sounded ''more grown up'', less pacey.. kind of typical of the sabre chip. I'd have been very happy with this DAC. If in your country it costs the same as the Young, try both. My jury is hung (undecided). Different sounding to the Young... the W4S is more red wine, less red bull and vodka.
Audiolab CDQ
Sorry, I thought it underperformed. I may aswell be honest. It wasn't bad at all.. it's just AS A DAC the W4S with the same chip sounded a little better. However, the ''filters'' showed their worth.. it went from '' a bit crap'' to ...ooh, actually that's quite good.. just by changing filters. I wish we'd had the new Audiolab MDAC at the time, as this was a Dac comparison, and this was the only CD player. Id reccomend (for a DAC) people try an MDAC and not the CD player if they don't need it. Its more money for a CD tray. Try the MDAC vs W4S if you already prefer one or the other and want a similar comparison.
Calyx.
If I lived in a country where it was a cheaper price, I'd have had it - it sounded the best dac on USB I thought. It was crisp and clear like the Young, but had .. something extra, a slightly better sound I thought. My worries were... 1) Calyx who?!?! who are you?! 2) warranty repairs in Korea?! no thanks.. but ooo. I like your shiny aluminium case.
Antelope Dac
Sounded big fat and chewy. Not a presentation I aspire to, but many liked it. I prefer Young and Calyx... but that sums it all up.. it's like a glass of wine - I'm not here to tell you what type to enjoy.
Oh yes, the Heed Dac.
Sounded a bit crap , no thanks. I'd have rather had the Rega at 1/3 the price.
Hi Chris, thanks for dropping in. Your test is very interesting, because the only other DAC in the same price region that interests me would have been the Calyx, and had I been looking to pay full RRP on the Young I would have had to hear the Calyx first as they cost the same.
(Now I am interested in the MYTEK 192 DAC, also about £1200, but I won't be hearing that any time soon I think.)
If I was buying new, now, the Audiolab MDAC would be the first on my audition list. The only thing that stops me seriously contemplating selling the Young for an MDAC is the lack of 192khz support, which is really really lame on my part as I only have 6 or 7 192 recordings. The functionality of the MDAC and the chance to drop my pre altogether is a very attractive proposition (which the Mytek seems to address).
I should really stop window shopping and just stick with what I have - I reckon the newest DACs offer tremendous bang for buck and bring performance that was uber high end three years ago down to the 1k mark. Simon suggested that the only real denominator between any of the current 'decent' DACs is personal taste, and I quite like that point of view. Because I can't afford a Weiss...
I tend to think the difference between the two DACs per se is likely very minor.
This is interesting to me, as I am still idly intending to demo an MDAC. Yours is the first dissenting voice I've heard so far. The 6 moons review (page three) talks of the high treble energy from the Young, and I agree it sounds too strident with the stock wall-wart. I will have to hear the MDAC myself, but my suspicion is just losing the pre-amp from the system could reap a degree of benefit that outweighs any slight deficiency in the DAC.
I bought the Young with a general idea of keeping it for a couple of years in my main system. By that stage, I hope I'm not looking to spend four or five times as much to get a real improvement.
The Asus DAC (with a tiger on it!) is getting very fine reports now, and that's only £300.
In five years, we'll have Weiss & Berkeley beaters for £500! (But it probably won't look as cool as the Young)
As you know, I'm not a box-swapper by nature, so I'll be looking for some no-argument improvements when I change the Young.
Anyway, what is your system, @anubisgrau?
I dont even know what geddes summas are. Time for a google!
One thing I have yet to revisit since acquiring a lightspeed, is what advantage there is is to chopping out the pre and running the Young directely into my power amp. This was quite worthwhile (if a hassle) whan I used my pimped EVA 2, using Audirvana + software volume control (which now has more adjustment on it).
I wonder if the (plainly better) lightspeed negates some of that difference, though I do find the RCA sockets provide a very loose fit for my cables. I dont know what difference that might make, if at all.
trouble is, I get so little free time with my system now that I dont want to be experimenting when I do get a chance to listen to it.
I meant 'how loud does it go?'. The amps have a fairly low output, don't they? My memory is also playing tricks. I thought the summas weren't that sensitive. So there you go. Shoulda Googled first... :-)
I don't regret having the Young at all, but some reviews suggest the Calyx may be a little better - it's probably down to personal preference as much as anything. I really am fond of the Young, but it really becomes something special with the uprated power supply - which is another expense to factor in to your budget.
It was best described as 'crackle' on transients, and only seemed to occur, albeit momentarily, on hot modern recordings. It was almost fully corrected by running one's software player -3dB. I am still unconvinced that it was 100% sorted, so I still run Audirvana+ -1dB.
There has been a most informative discussion on pfm, which may explain what was happening.
The Young DAC (mk1) appears to have retained it's issue with some 'hot' recordings over USB. By which I mean the signal seems to overload something in the DAC, resulting in an audible 'crackle'. It could be a problem on the digital side, but it happens to sound just like a solid state amplifier when it clips - a jarring crackly distortion. I have only ever heard this on vocals, and on poorer recordings at that.
The latest offending album was First Aid Kit - The Lions Roar. On the opening track, the sound is harsh and fatiguing, an issue which appears and then fades throughout the album. On vocals in the chorus of the title track, where there is some real energy, the vocal audibly (and unpleasantly) distorts. (This is best heard at low volume, which reduces the rooms effect on acoustics.)
Going back to my software player, I reinstated a previous setting I used to compensate: Cap the maximum volume the player will output by 3dB. Audirvana uses 64bit Izotope processing to do this with no loss to sound quality. This completely cures all issues with this particular album by First Aid Kit.
I don't have too many bad recordings with which to replicate the fault and I haven't heard it again since making my adjustment. I rather suspect the output stage is clipping into my pre-amplifier. Why so quick to point the finger at the DAC then? Because this is the third Young I have had, all of which displayed this issue. The first was awful, the second was improved, the third (this one) is very much better. I have used the Young DAC into a variety of amplifiers and pre-amps, including passives. Initially, quite a few albums caused the Young to 'clip' but with each replacement the issue improved. Now I think this album may be the only one I have to trip it up.
On some days the system has sounded tiring and left me unsatisfied, probably because of this very issue. If leaving my software player set at -3dB cures it, so much the better as it really is sounding very fine indeed now. If anyone else with a mk1 Young feels a nagging pang of dissatisfaction with their system sound quality, I suggest cutting your software player volume by 3dB.
Why the he'll they dont just force a minus 3db max level is beyond me. It's the reason I moved to the mdac.
Oh, and hello everyone long time no see.
What's happening?