Hi Mike. I'm currently using Windows 7 so might be able to help. Which software are you using? As Alan says, make sure your software can support the sample rate.
Just about to say the same thing as Alan. I know for certain that Foobar plays any rate it's given - IF the computer is up to it, i.e CPU and RAM wise. Probably help if you had a 64bit CPU as well.
Hi all, many thanks for the replies, what a fantastic forum!!! I'm using a dual core T6600 + Win7 64bit + Foobar + Fidelizer ... and ... I've realized how to play the files!!! basically I made the wrong decision in setting wasapi as output device, this forced to a max of 192kHz and 24 bit... setting ks (which I thought to be just an old "patch" due to XP limitations, I couldn't be more wrong) everything's gone the right way, I can play without any probs 352kHz and even 384kHz via foobar!!!!
I'm not so sure a review from Computer Audiophile would do anything for the Young. Chris appears to have some quite deep set views that align to broadly nationalistic boundaries and a lists of his friends. He's certainly never ever going to try and upset the audio hierarchy apple cart with a shot of honesty as he doesn't have the gravitas to carry that sort of move off with any authority.
He really had a chance to drive this section of the industry forward as he had gained a jump on the marketing depts of all the brands and was a real credible source for unbiased info a year ago. So he could have highlighted a path of objectivity and measurement to illuminate the view to real value for quality computer audio, but he's royally pissed that chance away along with his credibility as far as i see it.
I see your POV, having been a keen CA reader for 6 months or so - but I'm not sure you aren't being unfair to him. The way things have taken off in this industry means he has been propelled into a position of some authority, which he may not have anticipated.
There may be need for what you describe - I don't see Chris standing in the way of that and I don't criticize him for not championing it if it's not his approach.
Well, I have seen mine open and as soon as I sort some little problems I will definitely try some damping. The aluminum box resonates so bad and the plate that the board is attached to is made of steel - that surely needs to be addressed, as well as the nasty little rubber feet. My experience with digital devices has always been the same - they do benefit from vibration control as they have crystal oscillators inside and they are quite sensitive to micro vibrations. And rubber and plastic feet are not good for anything, don't trust me, just find three wooden cubes or anything made from wood that has the same size and shape and put it under. And you will start to feel weird. No connection with Marja and Henk, not even a cousin
Welcome to Audio Chews. Don't forget to introduce yourself properly, BTW.
Please keep us updated with your tweaks. I currently have two different types of Herbie's feet stuck in UK Customs, so I'm going to be trying those soon.
I suggest you play some music through your Young- very loud, then hit the casework as hard as you can with the biggest most dangerous looking hammer you can find- and then report back if you can hear it affecting the sound.
Hint- I've flicked all the ic's and the large cap with the output on my scope playing a 1khz sinewave- nothing showed up. the box may ring when flicked, but it has zero hum and the components and pcb are utterly un-microphonic.
The ring in the case is as bad as the Thetas I once owned - they were very good DACs & considered 'High End' in their day as the Young will be - to be sure the Young knocks my old Theta into the middle of next week in performance terms, as well as the modern DACs that followed it.
In fact the Theta (gone), Beresford (still got it) & the Young all have undamped casework & ring. Given that damping material is both cheap & easy to apply, yet a 'big gun' (Theta), a 'Giant Killer' (Beresford) and 'State-of the Art' (Young) all don't bother with it - it's legitimate to wonder if there is any real merit in case damping. Their designers have all spent a long time looking for an edge, and wouldn't miss a trick.
I have always been sceptical of SS devices being microphonic in the 'analogue sense' (read - phono stage) anyway. Now - encasing electronic circuits in metal I could envisage a problem with, but not necessarily a microphonic one. My amps are all devoid of metal for this kind of reason, so I understand.
But seriously, the only thing to do, IMO, is to try taking some measures against the ringing.
It's fundamental to science, is experimentation, and how our society moves forward. Accept the 'facts' and all we get is the status quo (and I don't mean Rick Parfitt and that lot :-) ).
I feel like a troll I wasn't trying to start a flame war, I really like how my Young sounds right of the box, though it has some things to be taken care of. My idea was for people to try something easy and cheap - if you hear the difference- good, if not-even better as you will not spend hours researching the subject. Regarding manufacturers - well, it would be nice to call Ayre people for example bad guys trying to sell you expensive hewn from solid aluminum boxes just for the looks. But it is not that simple. For example I know the guys that make the boxes of the Everything But The Box speakers and I will tell you that they tried several aluminum alloys for the bodies and they DO sound different, aluminum is not one single variety. It is true that there is no bell made from it but it sure does ring, take a look at speaker cones for example. Hell, even paper cones "ring"( kill me now, pls). You are right about microfonics, I am not an engineer and I strayed a little from the correct term, apologies. But I do insist that micro vibrations are important and usually a good stand and some feet help. And you have to be very skilled to make a micro vibration with a hammer. I promised I will only talk about how the DAC sounds from now on, again - apologies for the bold first post on the forum, my intentions were good.
I don't think you trolled. Nor did it result in a flame war.
I think many discussions on forums fundamentally confuse engineering and science, and although I'm not much of a tweaker, experimenting by trying something and seeing if it works seems perfectly legitimate to me. But first, you have to decide what you're going to try...
I should have congratulated you on a very high quality first post - my comments stem from the train of though you instigated. For that also you should be congratulated....I apologise if I made you feel like you started a controversy. Debate yes - we welcome that.
I'm all for experimentation as Dave says - without it you only have three chords. I will be very interested in your impressions after you have tried some things out - please feel very free to share, and in no way restricted as to what you might want to post.
Your comments about different aluminiums ringing differently are very interesting too - do you think the mass of the case on the Young would help reduce the phenomena you describe? It does appear over-engineered in the case-work, but that could be a very welcome instance of Italian aesthetic engineering.
Thanks! I felt bad that I posted it and the reason is that I am trying to actually quit doing that - always experimenting and trying to"improve" the sound... For those many years in audio I do have developed several tricks to impress even hardcore engineers that don't even think Shun mook disks can be discussed or even mentioned in their presence, this however does not make me happy at all and I do advise my friends that are discovering the wonderful world of good sound to just pick some stuff and listen to it for a few months. That will let them appreciate what they have and if there is something missing then they can play with everything they can read about and there is so much to read about that it is silly. So that's what I am going to do - get my Young working properly, put some feet under it(mandatory) and let it play for some weeks. That way I will appreciate what it does good and if I need to search for something more from it, something I have heard in my system before that I find missing I will try to squeeze it out but without loosing something. And that requires patience and strength to resist the urge to t...w...e...a...k. What got me interested in the Young was exactly the good engineering and as slow Marco is to keep his promises about delivery this guy sure has some good ideas and it shows, you have to give him credit for what he did with the Hiface, good or bad. The beautiful box of the Young is just a fantastic bonus, everything else would have been disposed of in my home
I only use the optical for my digital TV peter - sorry I'm not more use. I don't even have a CD player anymore...
Forane12 (what's your name? - I can't call you that!) - tweakers like you make this hobby interesting. Play on! And yes - all credit to Marco for his ideas & his fine eye.
I think the Young has lasers hidden behind the matrix & it can zap you anywhere in the listening room!
I am interested in hearing how the M2Tech Young DAC sounds using other inputs than USB.
I have just bought some 176/24 flac files, so I would like to be able to actually play those.
Did any of you test the other inputs? If you did what streamers / transports did you use?
Best wishes,
Peter
I used a Hi-Face into the S/PDIF input for a while - the Mac USB drivers weren't available. It sounded pretty good, but not as good as straight USB. Like Alan, I also feed my TV into the optical input.
My name is Nikola, you can call me Nick. Is it OK to post a longer post, just a few things about me and what I have learned about audio? I feel kind of shy to introduce myself in the proper section...
Thanks. I can of course write a lot but I will try to keep it simple and most of all useful.
I live in Bulgaria(that's how I know the EBTB guys) and I am 35 years old, for the last 20-25 addicted to music and audio. I am currently listening to the Young fed from a Lenovo laptop going through some Komako interconnects to a Primare i30 amplifier to a pair of Zaphaudio ZD5 speakers, connected to the Primare with some Duelund wire. The Komakos were a great surprise, my last interconnect was a Jorma design No.1 (costing more than the Young) and as good as it is the Komakos just made the music come alive and the speakers to sound like fullrange drivers, that is how coherent everything comes out. The Primare is OK at the moment, I have had several much better amps, mostly tube stuff but it is very convenient to have it right now as time is not much, I work in a hospital and I've been way too busy the last years, hopefully that will change. The Zaph ZD5 are great speakers, this is the sound engineering approach that I like and though I don't agree with some of the Rants of John Krutke I do respect his work and the ZD5 are fantastic. I am in love with speakerbuilding and I have made probably dozens of speakers, including the weird the Plutos from Mr.Linkwitz, Jordans and Fostex stuff. My friends have Magnepans, horns and all sorts of exotic speakers, I listen and have listened critically to systems costing around six figures. The rack is a Starsound Technologies Sistrum Rack.
Regarding sources - well, in the last two years I spent most of my money on the Digital source and I had several DACs and players in the 5000USD range, all very high quality. I wouldn't say that the Young is better than them but it sure has sound that makes it special - it has an ease to the presentation that is addicting, it is very relaxed but also detaied, not the bright sibilant type of detail but the detail that makes the music flow and feel natural. Everything sounds in proportion which is very important for me, for example that is something that escapes the DCS gear I have heard(no offense to owners). I do like it much better when fed USB, that is the reason I bought it and the explanation for me is that this is very close to the idea of slaving the transport to the DAC, you will hear about that phenomenon more in the future because that is what the Evo and the XMOS devices do-slave the transport/computer. Software is also gaining strength and becoming more and more important in audio - from software players to programmable chips and filters with minimum phase aberration.
Now the advice part which is why I decided to post in first place. No matter how good or bad the equipment is it benefits from two things in my experience - good support and good power. Good support is very important to bring the best out of the device - different racks sound different but in general it allows the maximum to be extracted from the component. That is especially important for speakers that need to be set up firm and no energy is lost in rocking them around.
Good power means good powercords too, I am using Mojo audio power cords and I do like them a lot, they have greatest effect on the Primare but the DACs also sound more spacious and relaxed when connected with them. Good power predominantly means that the Young sounds better with a dedicated PSU - I am experimenting with a sigma 11 from AMB labs and I have also built a pack from A123 batteris giving out approx. 17V. They do sound quite different and both are better than what is supplied in the box. I will report on the results but I need some time to fix my Young as my unit has some problems and Keith is sending a replacement board. And Keith is one fine gentleman, words are not enough here.
Thanks for the patience if you have read that, I had to give a perspective to what I am listening to as I have needed advice too. The digital world has changed, actually revolutionalized in recent years, I am so happy to be able to listen to all my CDs ripped and with the cover art to look at, I miss the CD loading in the tray but I will return to that when I have time.24/96 is definitely great too, I can't stop listening to that release of Keith Jarret's Koln Concert. And that is without compromizing quality much. I hope I will be able to share my progress with fine tuning the Young soon and I will not promote snake oil for sure, I hate it more than you do and I do know the power of self dilusion, even the guys at Karolinska in Stockholm enjoy that too,beware:
Hi Nick - that's a thorough introduction, thank you for your effort.
I have never heard of ZaphAudio - I suspect I shall google them this week though. Your experience is impressive - watch out for Jim who posts here, he also has much experience with building speakers. We look on him as a grandfather figure...
I look forward to your posts in the future, people like you make AudioChews a very interesting place.
B-) Do you have a link for the download samples you mentioned - MSB site?
Hi there, here is the link: http://www.msbtech.com/products/usb2.php (scroll down till "Signature File Downloads") btw, don't expect too much... or, well said, don't expect nothing, these are just test tracks to check the connection, no music here....
I'm enjoing my Young now with 44k ripped flac, how many of you find that the bass of this little toy is fantastic?
btw, my s/n is 0127, and my mobo report a 1.2 revision, what about yours?
I am interested in hearing how the M2Tech Young DAC sounds using other inputs than USB.
I've tried electrical spdif from my Marantz SA-11 ... A/B comparation showed no differences to my ears (which, as well known, are covered with ham ) and this is IMHO a good indication, in the sense that I've always find SA-11 to be one of the best cd player around....
out of jokes, maybe (and I repeat: maybe) some sort of "grainess" can be found on the young in the highs, but really is something you could discover only with a direct comparation and with great attention
Comments
Cheers,
James
many thanks for the replies, what a fantastic forum!!!
I'm using a dual core T6600 + Win7 64bit + Foobar + Fidelizer ... and ... I've realized how to play the files!!!
basically I made the wrong decision in setting wasapi as output device, this forced to a max of 192kHz and 24 bit... setting ks (which I thought to be just an old "patch" due to XP limitations, I couldn't be more wrong) everything's gone the right way, I can play without any probs 352kHz and even 384kHz via foobar!!!!
btw this was just out of curiosity, as 99% of my library is made of 44 and 96 flac
here are some photos of the young playing dxd from 2l and some 384 samples from msb site:
http://i54.tinypic.com/nwk31v.jpg
http://i55.tinypic.com/2ekhw5z.jpg
http://i53.tinypic.com/i28y9k.jpg
of course I will
:-bd :-bd
B-)
Do you have a link for the download samples you mentioned - MSB site?
There may be need for what you describe - I don't see Chris standing in the way of that and I don't criticize him for not championing it if it's not his approach.
I have seen mine open and as soon as I sort some little problems I will definitely try some damping. The aluminum box resonates so bad and the plate that the board is attached to is made of steel - that surely needs to be addressed, as well as the nasty little rubber feet. My experience with digital devices has always been the same - they do benefit from vibration control as they have crystal oscillators inside and they are quite sensitive to micro vibrations. And rubber and plastic feet are not good for anything, don't trust me, just find three wooden cubes or anything made from wood that has the same size and shape and put it under. And you will start to feel weird. No connection with Marja and Henk, not even a cousin
In fact the Theta (gone), Beresford (still got it) & the Young all have undamped casework & ring. Given that damping material is both cheap & easy to apply, yet a 'big gun' (Theta), a 'Giant Killer' (Beresford) and 'State-of the Art' (Young) all don't bother with it - it's legitimate to wonder if there is any real merit in case damping. Their designers have all spent a long time looking for an edge, and wouldn't miss a trick.
I have always been sceptical of SS devices being microphonic in the 'analogue sense' (read - phono stage) anyway. Now - encasing electronic circuits in metal I could envisage a problem with, but not necessarily a microphonic one. My amps are all devoid of metal for this kind of reason, so I understand.
You are right about microfonics, I am not an engineer and I strayed a little from the correct term, apologies. But I do insist that micro vibrations are important and usually a good stand and some feet help. And you have to be very skilled to make a micro vibration with a hammer.
I should have congratulated you on a very high quality first post - my comments stem from the train of though you instigated. For that also you should be congratulated....I apologise if I made you feel like you started a controversy. Debate yes - we welcome that.
I'm all for experimentation as Dave says - without it you only have three chords. I will be very interested in your impressions after you have tried some things out - please feel very free to share, and in no way restricted as to what you might want to post.
Your comments about different aluminiums ringing differently are very interesting too - do you think the mass of the case on the Young would help reduce the phenomena you describe? It does appear over-engineered in the case-work, but that could be a very welcome instance of Italian aesthetic engineering.
What got me interested in the Young was exactly the good engineering and as slow Marco is to keep his promises about delivery this guy sure has some good ideas and it shows, you have to give him credit for what he did with the Hiface, good or bad. The beautiful box of the Young is just a fantastic bonus, everything else would have been disposed of in my home
I am interested in hearing how the M2Tech Young DAC sounds using other inputs than
USB.
I have just bought some 176/24 flac files, so I would like to be able to
actually play those.
Did any of you test the other inputs? If you did what streamers / transports
did you use?
Best wishes,
Peter
Forane12 (what's your name? - I can't call you that!) - tweakers like you make this hobby interesting. Play on! And yes - all credit to Marco for his ideas & his fine eye.
I think the Young has lasers hidden behind the matrix & it can zap you anywhere in the listening room!
My name is Nikola, you can call me Nick. Is it OK to post a longer post, just a few things about me and what I have learned about audio? I feel kind of shy to introduce myself in the proper section...
Thanks. I can of course write a lot but I will try to keep it simple and most of all useful.
I live in Bulgaria(that's how I know the EBTB guys) and I am 35 years old, for the last 20-25 addicted to music and audio. I am currently listening to the Young fed from a Lenovo laptop going through some Komako interconnects to a Primare i30 amplifier to a pair of Zaphaudio ZD5 speakers, connected to the Primare with some Duelund wire.
The Komakos were a great surprise, my last interconnect was a Jorma design No.1 (costing more than the Young) and as good as it is the Komakos just made the music come alive and the speakers to sound like fullrange drivers, that is how coherent everything comes out.
The Primare is OK at the moment, I have had several much better amps, mostly tube stuff but it is very convenient to have it right now as time is not much, I work in a hospital and I've been way too busy the last years, hopefully that will change.
The Zaph ZD5 are great speakers, this is the sound engineering approach that I like and though I don't agree with some of the Rants of John Krutke I do respect his work and the ZD5 are fantastic. I am in love with speakerbuilding and I have made probably dozens of speakers, including the weird the Plutos from Mr.Linkwitz, Jordans and Fostex stuff. My friends have Magnepans, horns and all sorts of exotic speakers, I listen and have listened critically to systems costing around six figures.
The rack is a Starsound Technologies Sistrum Rack.
Regarding sources - well, in the last two years I spent most of my money on the Digital source and I had several DACs and players in the 5000USD range, all very high quality. I wouldn't say that the Young is better than them but it sure has sound that makes it special - it has an ease to the presentation that is addicting, it is very relaxed but also detaied, not the bright sibilant type of detail but the detail that makes the music flow and feel natural. Everything sounds in proportion which is very important for me, for example that is something that escapes the DCS gear I have heard(no offense to owners). I do like it much better when fed USB, that is the reason I bought it and the explanation for me is that this is very close to the idea of slaving the transport to the DAC, you will hear about that phenomenon more in the future because that is what the Evo and the XMOS devices do-slave the transport/computer. Software is also gaining strength and becoming more and more important in audio - from software players to programmable chips and filters with minimum phase aberration.
Now the advice part which is why I decided to post in first place. No matter how good or bad the equipment is it benefits from two things in my experience - good support and good power. Good support is very important to bring the best out of the device - different racks sound different but in general it allows the maximum to be extracted from the component. That is especially important for speakers that need to be set up firm and no energy is lost in rocking them around.
Good power means good powercords too, I am using Mojo audio power cords and I do like them a lot, they have greatest effect on the Primare but the DACs also sound more spacious and relaxed when connected with them. Good power predominantly means that the Young sounds better with a dedicated PSU - I am experimenting with a sigma 11 from AMB labs and I have also built a pack from A123 batteris giving out approx. 17V. They do sound quite different and both are better than what is supplied in the box. I will report on the results but I need some time to fix my Young as my unit has some problems and Keith is sending a replacement board. And Keith is one fine gentleman, words are not enough here.
Thanks for the patience if you have read that, I had to give a perspective to what I am listening to as I have needed advice too. The digital world has changed, actually revolutionalized in recent years, I am so happy to be able to listen to all my CDs ripped and with the cover art to look at, I miss the CD loading in the tray but I will return to that when I have time.24/96 is definitely great too, I can't stop listening to that release of Keith Jarret's Koln Concert. And that is without compromizing quality much. I hope I will be able to share my progress with fine tuning the Young soon and I will not promote snake oil for sure, I hate it more than you do and I do know the power of self dilusion, even the guys at Karolinska in Stockholm enjoy that too,beware:
http://www.thelocal.se/32234/20110224/
Thanks again, sure this place is very open and people are tolerant, that is why I decided to post, something I don't usually do.
I have never heard of ZaphAudio - I suspect I shall google them this week though. Your experience is impressive - watch out for Jim who posts here, he also has much experience with building speakers. We look on him as a grandfather figure...
I look forward to your posts in the future, people like you make AudioChews a very interesting place.
btw, don't expect too much... or, well said, don't expect nothing, these are just test tracks to check the connection, no music here....
I'm enjoing my Young now with 44k ripped flac, how many of you find that the bass of this little toy is fantastic?
btw, my s/n is 0127, and my mobo report a 1.2 revision, what about yours?
mike
are covered with ham
) and this is IMHO a good indication, in the sense that I've always find SA-11 to be one of the best cd player around....
out of jokes, maybe (and I repeat: maybe) some sort of "grainess" can be found on the young in the highs, but really is something you could discover only with a direct comparation and with great attention
mike
not so far... what input are you using?
meanwhile, can you report the s/n of your Young? (and if you have opened it, also the mobo revision?)
Don't know is this helps:
I have not got the new v2 yet, been promissed it for a long time now so perhaps...
The CDs I have observed do clipping is Duffy: Rockferry, track 1 and Led Zeppelin: How The West Was Won, track 2.
Solving the problem: Turn down the volumencontrol to about 75% (Mediamonkey/Win XP).