Running the test blind would have required a non-participating conductor. None volunteered! Running the test with several tracks would have tripled the audition time (already 8-9 hours).
The aim was to give each DAC the best chance to perform optimally, within logistic constraints, and audition each as exactingly and fairly as possible (two or three transports and inputs) in the same event. Mission accomplished.
sq225917: maybe you should have joined in, or host an event - show us how it's done!
All the DACs were different animals with different transports: the VDAC and Heed were audibly not optimised for USB, but the Heed operated in a different league to the sub-£1K DACs via SPDIF or XLR input: very close to the Calyx via USB.
I don't want to be drawn into confrontation about the Young because loads of you own them, and I honestly think it's a nice DAC.
It is terribly important to listen to these things in your own system and room, and not rely overmuch on hearsay or forum chatter, especially from dealers like us!
Mark Hi, can you look at the drivers for the Calyx ,Marco is recitent to publicly state who he OEM's for, but Iknow W4S use him and I suspect Calyx also. Sadly the W4S didn't outperform anything here, extremely poor sounding, and the internal layout and quality of the boards! Perhaps they have improved? Keith.
Wyred 4 Sound has consistently stated that their drivers are not OEM M2Tech. But I agree it looks suspicious when M2Tech consistently claim otherwise!
The Calyx USB is a whole other kettle of fish: they're using ASIO over USB and a full XMOS implementation: state of the art.
Don't know quite what happened with regard to your one-on-one W4S time: no other reviewer or auditionee has ever described it as 'extremely poor sounding' – your defamation of this DAC has grown more and more vituperative over the last year. The panel auditioned exactly the same sample I loaned you.
Every engineer and designer who has seen it has commented on the unusually high standard of components for this price point. What did you find objectionable about the internal layout?
The truth is that the Young and the W4S are similarly competent, at a similar price, though there are differences - very much confirmed on Saturday. To praise one so highly, and to dismiss the other as 'extremely poor' would be unaccountable if you weren't the distributor.
Just heard from Marco, he believes he has found the problem and a new driver will fix it! So fingers crossed , you will be able to sit back and 'enjoy' that track! vb Keith.
Just heard from Marco, he believes he has found the problem and a new driver will fix it! So fingers crossed , you will be able to sit back and 'enjoy' that track! vb Keith.
Mark - good to see you here. We at AudioChews favour epic thread drift as part of the 'character' of the place, but given your vested interests in DACs (well done for coming clean immediately) I wonder if your points are, well - mis-placed in this particular thread?
If you want to discuss the bake-off, and your appraisal of all the contenders, then that is excellent. You have free reign to do that here as an enthusiast, but although this thread is the obvious place to bring the issue up initially, would you mind awfully starting a new thread? Your discussion certainly merits its own space, and this discussion is in danger of losing it's usefulness as a reference for Young DAC users.
Thanks a lot, and I hope you'll feel free to join in plenty here.
If more than one person feels it would useful, I don't mind discussing the bake-off, which was uncommonly useful as these things go.
Placing the Young objectively within the wider context of high performing DACs from £500-1800 seemed completely on-topic. But given the happy vibe created by so many owners, I appreciate that a contrary - but defensible - view it's not a going to be popular - but surely appropriate? Or is this purely a 'Young-appreciation thread?!'
And we are already making allowances for vested interests, here, right? Jason IS going to say the NVA box is brilliant; Keith IS going to say the the Young is peerless; I AM going to say the W4S is the best DAC under £1K and that our transports are wonderful . . .
It's probably more important to note the opinions of unbiased listeners in that room, and to sift the explicit, empirical comments from the slanderous, generic: 'that was rubbish' kind. The Young is a great DAC - no question. It's also heavily hyped right now, and not the only game in town.
All seven listeners from that panel agreed that there were no giant killers. And we listened very carefully to the Young. It's just harder to hear it from me because I appear to have an agenda! If anyone feels they want to talk about it in another thread, perhaps it's best if I'm not the one to start it . . .
Come on don't be shy. Start the thread, that's just semantics say someone else should. Seriously, for a moment, we've been working with the Young for a little while and have all invested time-wise etc in what we've found to be a damned good DAC. As you can read however, it's not all been plain sailing but we've had a good response from Purite Audio and from M2Tech. The bake-off results, never the less, are still of real interest and i'm sure there'll be several sons-of-DAC-off coming along at some point.
Can I say (positively) that the Young looks like a really classy clock/radio from the way we imagine the future was going to be in 1975? I honestly think it's a great piece of product design.
More and more, I'm coming to the conclusion that half the battle with USB (apart from clean power and isolation) is driver-related: all the best USB DAC makers have invested considerable time and money in proprietary low latency drivers. Perhaps one day we'll be able to settle the issue of whether Wyred 4 Sound's are the same as M2Tech's - they both deliver brilliantly at 24/192 via USB.
It is not a Young appreciation thread, it is a Young DAC thread. Your thoughts are appropriately placed in a thread covering the Bake-off or a another thread comparing DACs. This one is for Young reference - please do not deliberately mis-read that again.
It would suit your aims as a re-seller of competing DACs to muddy a source of reference for Young DAC users, so start a thread that can co-exist with this one. Otherwise, you will only reveal yourself to be posting in a marketing capacity rather than an enthusiast one.
That's an interesting perspective Keith. Are there any reported problems with Windows drivers, or just MAC? I had wondered if the unusual capabilities of the DAC were responsible for getting drivers to work correctly, as the W4S drivers obviously work.
Alan Hi, as far as I am aware all the OEM stuff has been 24/192 only. I don't know whether M2Tech will offer the 24/384 to customers. I know he has supplied a lot of manufacturers! vb Keith.
A simple pop of the hood and identification of the ASICS used would highlight who potentially designed the interface.
I'd welcome threads about alternative dacs- in alternative dac threads- there's no need for a dog and pony show with other trade members adding their wares to this thread surely?
A simple pop of the hood and identification of the ASICS used would highlight who potentially designed the interface.
I'd welcome threads about alternative dacs- in alternative dac threads- there's no need for a dog and pony show with other trade members adding their wares to this thread surely?
Alan Hi, as far as I am aware all the OEM stuff has been 24/192 only. I don't know whether M2Tech will offer the 24/384 to customers. I know he has supplied a lot of manufacturers! vb Keith.
Hi Keith,
I was really getting at something a little different, namely two points:
It is strange the W4S drivers work without reported problems but M2Tech's Young drivers do not; I was simply wondering if the "unusual capability" of the Young (32/384) was causing problems for those writing the drivers, as even conventional sample rates seem to be less than optimal at the moment.
Are there any reported problems with Young drivers on windows machines, or is it just those of us with MACs?
Reading between the lines I believe one company was responsible for all three drivers at the bake off. Keith.
Reading the lines, W4S have reiterated that they are not using the M2Tech drivers. The Calyx uses TUB USB/ASIO drivers from Thesycon and the XMOS chipset. No more comparisons from me on this point.
Is it known which manufacturers do share the same USB drivers as the ones in the Young? It is rumoured that M2Tech licence their tech, but not to whom . . .
Mentioning no names, we've seen lots of machines struggling with Mac USB drivers - particularly under 10.5 - that work perfectly under Windows, so about par for the course.
Reading between the lines I believe one company was responsible for all three drivers at the bake off. Keith.
Reading the lines, W4S have reiterated that they are not using the M2Tech drivers. The Calyx uses TUB USB/ASIO drivers from Thesycon and the XMOS chipset. No more comparisons from me on this point.
Is it known which manufacturers do share the same USB drivers as the ones in the Young? It is rumoured that M2Tech licence their tech, but not to whom . . .
Mentioning no names, we've seen lots of machines struggling with Mac USB drivers - particularly under 10.5 - that work perfectly under Windows, so about par for the course.
Yeah. I had to move on from my G4 Mac because all the software I needed to run demanded 10.6, presumably because it's 64-bit.
If you have an Intel Mac, than a copy of Snow Leopard is about £30. No problem, I'd say!
Just heard from Marco, he believes he has found the problem and a new driver will fix it! So fingers crossed , you will be able to sit back and 'enjoy' that track! vb Keith.
Thanks Keith
I do like good news :-)
Just caught this - good news indeed. I suppose that hassle with terminal will have to be endured again...nevermind, we're getting closer. Decibel just updated again also - I wonder what he keeps doing to it?
Just heard from Marco, he believes he has found the problem and a new driver will fix it! So fingers crossed , you will be able to sit back and 'enjoy' that track! vb Keith.
Thanks Keith
I do like good news :-)
Just caught this - good news indeed. I suppose that hassle with terminal will have to be endured again...nevermind, we're getting closer. Decibel just updated again also - I wonder what he keeps doing to it?
Not to hijack, but my buddy is sending me over a TeddyPS Zodiac that Teddy built for the Antelope Zodiac Plus DAC (and sending the DAC too ). Teddy will hopefully send a standard umbilical, in time, that hooks to the Young (both DACS use 18V). So I will test it on both. Yes!
Question: he is experiencing, on day two, quite a change in sound...day one was what was to be expected (more heft, more weight, better noise floor) but day two is thin, brittle, aggressive. Sounds like the standard roller coaster of sound we call "break in". Is anyone familiar with Teddy Pardo PS break in? We only have the thing for a total of 30 days (unless one of us buys it of course). thanks
Clarification: it's not the DAC that's breaking in; the DAC has 1000 hrs on it.
There should be no break in with teddys design, he runs them in before sending them out and the caps he uses in the rectifier/smoother form in seconds, not days or weeks. He's also stated there is no measured change in noise levels after the first minute or so after switch on, once the regulator is up to temp- that's it.
I have a bit of experience with his teddyreg and have never noticed anything beyond thermal warm up. None of the power supplies I've built using his reg have taken more than minutes to reach a steady state or have showed any drift during soak.
I'd suggest your friend is, dare I say it, prone to flights of fancy- or getting a cold... ;-)
Dunno. Mine is on all the time, as my old Thetas sounded better 'pre-warmed', as did all my previous CD playerd. I wouldn't be surprised if the output stage is powered up even when you switch it off - I seem to remember Arcam used to do this.
If I leave mine on, the kids don't have to touch it when they want to watch TV, which is probably the real advantage. Also, as I now use an external power supply, I might have to turn that off and on as well, which is a load of faff. So it stays on.
There should be no break in with teddys design, he runs them in before sending them out and the caps he uses in the rectifier/smoother form in seconds, not days or weeks. He's also stated there is no measured change in noise levels after the first minute or so after switch on, once the regulator is up to temp- that's it.
I have a bit of experience with his teddyreg and have never noticed anything beyond thermal warm up. None of the power supplies I've built using his reg have taken more than minutes to reach a steady state or have showed any drift during soak.
I'd suggest your friend is, dare I say it, prone to flights of fancy- or getting a cold... ;-)
Wow, this place goes nasty awfully quick. Teddy himself told David via email that the PS should take between one week and a month to break in...that's the reason I was asking!! Flights of fancy?? C'mon.
My last DAC, a decent budget design of similar order to a DACMagic, sounded OK at first, then awful. After nearly a week it was better again, and finally 'on song' after another couple of weeks.
Ted - what you have just experienced is a very small indication of the culture in UK forums - here are links to the two largest:
If you look at any thread in the UK regarding burn in, or particularly whether cables actually sound different to each other, you will have your eyes well and truly opened to the, shall we say - 'robust debating' style that typifies these forums. It is largely a knee jerk reaction to marketing flim-flam and ridiculous (and occasionally legally disproved) pseudo-scientific claims by many manufacturers and, sadly, partisan reviewers. These factors have been a part of the HiFi landscape for three decades, and cause feelings to run deep.
AudioChews is also a reactionary community, it was established out of disappointment with some other forums in which it was no longer OK to say what we heard, or another forum where you could be as nasty as you wanted about anyone anywhere. All voices can be heard here, and we don't even mind robust comments so long as they leave room for the other view without devaluing the opinions of either side. The watchword at AudioChews is respect.
To elaborate a little further, in the UK there is an uneasy truce between the 'objectivist' audiophile - the one who has the knowledge to say something does or does not happen, and crucially is happy to discount what he thinks he hears if his understanding tells him otherwise, and the more 'subjective' audiophile, which is the general bias of this forum. We ('subjective' audiophiles) don't want to be deceived, and are happy to be educated, but not to be patronised. Challenged - perhaps yes, but not told that we can't hear what we are in fact experiencing in our listening rooms because someone somewhere else 'knows' differently.
We therefore adopt a live & let live attitude, that is to say we as 'subjectivist listeners' accept we don't always understand what we describe nor can we prove it (nor feel the compulsion to), but equally an 'objective audiophile' cannot change the reality of what we hear. The uneasyness of this 'truce' dictates a certain amount of respect be shown to the opposing sides of the issues at hand, whatever we might think privately.
Finally, if we all can accept this position, then the occasional post that has an unusually strong style can be seen in context and accepted for what it is, without the taking of offence. The whole situation is a uniquely British phenomenon, especially once the context is taken into account, but I hope that helps a little Ted.
I hope that people see the purpose of we moderators being so specific and prescriptive about our approach to moderation in these early days of Audiochews. We do want the forum to be characterised from the outset by respectful debate. With this wish in mind...
sq225917's "I'd suggest your friend is, dare I say it, prone to flights of fancy- or getting a cold... " is probably just in the grey area I mentioned. It contains a personal comment "your friend is...", which ideally would be avoided altogether. But, significantly and on the positive side, there is an intentional injection of qualifications "I'd suggest...dare I say it..." and humour (the winking smiley), both of which increase that all important respect rating for that particular post... Indeed the qualifications and humour are examples of some of the kinds of injections that can make all the difference to the way that the tone of a post can be perceived. (Though don't assume a smiley will cover every sin!)
Overall I don't detect any nastiness in sq225917's post, and certainly don't feel any moderation of it is necessary.
Comments
Running the test with several tracks would have tripled the audition time (already 8-9 hours).
The aim was to give each DAC the best chance to perform optimally, within logistic constraints, and audition each as exactingly and fairly as possible (two or three transports and inputs) in the same event. Mission accomplished.
sq225917: maybe you should have joined in, or host an event - show us how it's done!
I don't want to be drawn into confrontation about the Young because loads of you own them, and I honestly think it's a nice DAC.
It is terribly important to listen to these things in your own system and room, and not rely overmuch on hearsay or forum chatter, especially from dealers like us!
Sadly the W4S didn't outperform anything here, extremely poor sounding, and the internal layout and quality of the boards!
Perhaps they have improved?
Keith.
The Calyx USB is a whole other kettle of fish: they're using ASIO over USB and a full XMOS implementation: state of the art.
Don't know quite what happened with regard to your one-on-one W4S time: no other reviewer or auditionee has ever described it as 'extremely poor sounding' – your defamation of this DAC has grown more and more vituperative over the last year. The panel auditioned exactly the same sample I loaned you.
Every engineer and designer who has seen it has commented on the unusually high standard of components for this price point. What did you find objectionable about the internal layout?
The truth is that the Young and the W4S are similarly competent, at a similar price, though there are differences - very much confirmed on Saturday. To praise one so highly, and to dismiss the other as 'extremely poor' would be unaccountable if you weren't the distributor.
Understood, though.
So fingers crossed , you will be able to sit back and 'enjoy' that track!
vb Keith.
As will my neighbours, who adore a bit of Kanye!
Mark - good to see you here. We at AudioChews favour epic thread drift as part of the 'character' of the place, but given your vested interests in DACs (well done for coming clean immediately) I wonder if your points are, well - mis-placed in this particular thread?
If you want to discuss the bake-off, and your appraisal of all the contenders, then that is excellent. You have free reign to do that here as an enthusiast, but although this thread is the obvious place to bring the issue up initially, would you mind awfully starting a new thread? Your discussion certainly merits its own space, and this discussion is in danger of losing it's usefulness as a reference for Young DAC users.
Thanks a lot, and I hope you'll feel free to join in plenty here.
Placing the Young objectively within the wider context of high performing DACs from £500-1800 seemed completely on-topic. But given the happy vibe created by so many owners, I appreciate that a contrary - but defensible - view it's not a going to be popular - but surely appropriate? Or is this purely a 'Young-appreciation thread?!'
And we are already making allowances for vested interests, here, right? Jason IS going to say the NVA box is brilliant; Keith IS going to say the the Young is peerless; I AM going to say the W4S is the best DAC under £1K and that our transports are wonderful . . .
It's probably more important to note the opinions of unbiased listeners in that room, and to sift the explicit, empirical comments from the slanderous, generic: 'that was rubbish' kind. The Young is a great DAC - no question. It's also heavily hyped right now, and not the only game in town.
All seven listeners from that panel agreed that there were no giant killers. And we listened very carefully to the Young. It's just harder to hear it from me because I appear to have an agenda! If anyone feels they want to talk about it in another thread, perhaps it's best if I'm not the one to start it . . .
More and more, I'm coming to the conclusion that half the battle with USB (apart from clean power and isolation) is driver-related: all the best USB DAC makers have invested considerable time and money in proprietary low latency drivers. Perhaps one day we'll be able to settle the issue of whether Wyred 4 Sound's are the same as M2Tech's - they both deliver brilliantly at 24/192 via USB.
It would suit your aims as a re-seller of competing DACs to muddy a source of reference for Young DAC users, so start a thread that can co-exist with this one. Otherwise, you will only reveal yourself to be posting in a marketing capacity rather than an enthusiast one.
Keith.
I don't know whether M2Tech will offer the 24/384 to customers.
I know he has supplied a lot of manufacturers!
vb Keith.
I was really getting at something a little different, namely two points:
Is it known which manufacturers do share the same USB drivers as the ones in the Young? It is rumoured that M2Tech licence their tech, but not to whom . . .
Mentioning no names, we've seen lots of machines struggling with Mac USB drivers - particularly under 10.5 - that work perfectly under Windows, so about par for the course.
Question: he is experiencing, on day two, quite a change in sound...day one was what was to be expected (more heft, more weight, better noise floor) but day two is thin, brittle, aggressive. Sounds like the standard roller coaster of sound we call "break in".
Clarification: it's not the DAC that's breaking in; the DAC has 1000 hrs on it.
8->
If I leave mine on, the kids don't have to touch it when they want to watch TV, which is probably the real advantage. Also, as I now use an external power supply, I might have to turn that off and on as well, which is a load of faff. So it stays on.
Keith.
Keith.
Ted - what you have just experienced is a very small indication of the culture in UK forums - here are links to the two largest:
http://www.hifiwigwam.com/forum.php
http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/
If you look at any thread in the UK regarding burn in, or particularly whether cables actually sound different to each other, you will have your eyes well and truly opened to the, shall we say - 'robust debating' style that typifies these forums. It is largely a knee jerk reaction to marketing flim-flam and ridiculous (and occasionally legally disproved) pseudo-scientific claims by many manufacturers and, sadly, partisan reviewers. These factors have been a part of the HiFi landscape for three decades, and cause feelings to run deep.
AudioChews is also a reactionary community, it was established out of disappointment with some other forums in which it was no longer OK to say what we heard, or another forum where you could be as nasty as you wanted about anyone anywhere. All voices can be heard here, and we don't even mind robust comments so long as they leave room for the other view without devaluing the opinions of either side. The watchword at AudioChews is respect.
To elaborate a little further, in the UK there is an uneasy truce between the 'objectivist' audiophile - the one who has the knowledge to say something does or does not happen, and crucially is happy to discount what he thinks he hears if his understanding tells him otherwise, and the more 'subjective' audiophile, which is the general bias of this forum. We ('subjective' audiophiles) don't want to be deceived, and are happy to be educated, but not to be patronised. Challenged - perhaps yes, but not told that we can't hear what we are in fact experiencing in our listening rooms because someone somewhere else 'knows' differently.
We therefore adopt a live & let live attitude, that is to say we as 'subjectivist listeners' accept we don't always understand what we describe nor can we prove it (nor feel the compulsion to), but equally an 'objective audiophile' cannot change the reality of what we hear. The uneasyness of this 'truce' dictates a certain amount of respect be shown to the opposing sides of the issues at hand, whatever we might think privately.
Finally, if we all can accept this position, then the occasional post that has an unusually strong style can be seen in context and accepted for what it is, without the taking of offence. The whole situation is a uniquely British phenomenon, especially once the context is taken into account, but I hope that helps a little Ted.
http://www.audiochews.com/index.php?p=/discussion/202/a-word-in-everyones-ear#Item_3
I hope that people see the purpose of we moderators being so specific and
prescriptive about our approach to moderation in these early days of
Audiochews. We do want the forum to be characterised from the outset by respectful
debate.
With this wish in mind...
sq225917's "I'd suggest your friend is, dare I say it, prone to flights of fancy- or getting a cold...
Overall I don't detect any nastiness in sq225917's post, and certainly don't feel any moderation of it is necessary.
The respect gestapo are watching...
B-)