Ted, I hope my post didn't offend you, I certainly didn't set out to do that, it was just a little ribaldry.
As far as burn in goes, i'm a none believer. Sure valves warm up, cartridge suspensions becomes more compliant with temp and use, as do speaker surrounds and many components need to attain optimum working temperature, particularly high bias devices like class A amps before they reach stability.
But from the first second you turn them on most devices are heading downhill in performance by an imperceptible amount every second they are in use until the day one part in them fails for the first time. There's no magic inside a DAC where in a chaotic state along the path towards failure that every component inside the box comes together to sound it's best out of sheer coincidence.
Tunnelling electron microscopes don't suddenly on the first day of their 4th week of use magically self calibrate themselves to a higher level of accuracy then the day the technician installed them. They drift out of calibration like any electronic device from the moment they are switched on. Sure at a point after every switch on it will reach operational stability, but this doesn't take weeks, it takes seconds or minutes.
New hifi sounds different, you become accustomed to it relatively quickly, and then you either keep on liking it, or feel let down by it in which case you perceive the roller coaster, where eventually you will come to accept that you are stuck with it and it will once more attain greatness in your mind- or be sold.
It's human nature and the simple cycle of dissatisfaction and acclimatisation.
I can't say I agree with your view on burn-in, if by that, you mean that gear doesn't spend some time improving its sound over its first N hours of use. It's just not what I've heard over the years.
Thread drift ahoy - isn't this the place to talk about Young DACs? (says he of the rapped knuckles)
But that specific PSU is definitely affected by the run-in rollercoaster – in my system, powering a Wadia dock – and according to Audiocom who know them inside out. Or at least as well as than anyone in the UK.
With regard to moderation, there seems to be a fine line between snarky/bitchy (which is cheap, but stays within the bounds of free speech), forthright / 'spade a spade' / doesn't tolerate fools gladly (considered positive, but usually a pain the neck) and defamatory, which - legally - is out of order. If the legal system can't always make the distinction, it's no wonder different forums have different rules. Good luck with that, mods!
Thread drift ahoy - isn't this the place to talk about Young DACs? (says he of the rapped knuckles)
But that specific PSU is definitely affected by the run-in rollercoaster – in my system, powering a Wadia dock – and according to Audiocom who know them inside out. Or at least as well as than anyone in the UK.
It is, indeed. And the discussion is about DAC and DAC PSU burn-in. No probs ;-)
With regard to moderation, there seems to be a fine line between snarky/bitchy (which is cheap, but stays within the bounds of free speech), forthright / 'spade a spade' / doesn't tolerate fools gladly (considered positive, but usually a pain the neck) and defamatory, which - legally - is out of order. If the legal system can't always make the distinction, it's no wonder different forums have different rules. Good luck with that, mods!
We accept that it's difficult and, without taking a swipe at other places in the Interwebs, there are plenty of examples of failures.
We're just having a go in our own way. It may or may not work in the long term. And, if people don't like what we're trying to do, they will vote with their feet - or vice versa.
Can we move this discussion to Rules of this Community, please? That way, we can keep this Discussion for talking about gear.
Oh I didn't know Audiocon had started selling them. Well if they say they burn in, then my data logging Oscilloscope must be broken then eh? I better rush out to get it fixed then...
In the Uzinusa household, we lay hands on every new piece of hifi. This markedly reduces the DDE (delayed-dissapointment effect) so common with frequent box-swapping.
Sure Alan. My mate is a CAD designer and has access to industrial CAD machines etc. We made a preliminary pair from 10mm resin-bonded paper (which sounds rubbish but is actually very dense material, very hard, in a lovely dark chocolate colour: it's sort of like very very substantial pcb). The pieces slot together perfectly and fit tight as a glove. I'll open a thread in the DIY section and show some photo's in a week's time as off snowboarding for a few days now.
We just could not believe the price of Quadraspire and Revo stands and thought we could do better for ourselves.
Just a quick update on what I am hearing from the Young. I few days ago I brought it to a friend's who has an Audio Synthesis DAX-2. The Young was very close to the DAX-2, this is the first DAC there that has the same tonal balance and when you switch from one to the other everything doesn't collapse and start sounding weird, very very good sound from the little beast. It still is a little aggressive and it's missing some of the bass beauty of the DAX-2 but for the money that is quite an achievement. Must say that this is using a battery on the Young and USB, SPDIF is not that good unfortunately. Veery promising...
I'm hoping Marco won't be flashing any more firmware because I popped the top and ventured inside today. Now I remember why I hate working SMT boards- Nothing flows on them properly, making removing caps with solder wick next to impossible.
Any way, the chinee-cap is gone replaced by a 25v 1000uf Panasonic FM. I figure there's no point putting a larger and higher ESR cap in its place, as it's just providing a little local decoupling so probably wants to be as fasta dn as low impedance as possible. Interestingly I had both FC and FM caps in the same value- the FM has 1/10 of the impedance of the FC, and they are pretty low impedance caps to start with.
Does it sound any different? Well it certainly doesn't sound any worse.
My Young is sounding distinctly quieter than before. The analogue stage seems to have gone kaput, as the DAC is locking on to digital streams from both USB and optical.
I think postie may be the problem - or maybe the trip across Europe. I noticed this Young rattles when I moved it out from my rig. I didn't notice it when I Installed it, but it's been sitting undisturbed there for a few weeks, so I assume the damage was made through insensitive handling somewhere along the way.
Anyway, Keith is swapping this one for a new one from the next batch. Thanks to him as always. The man's a saint!
Meanwhile, it's too damned quiet here... Who's going to lend me a decent DAC?
I just bought a second hand T-amp thingy, with built in USB DAC. Initial listening impressions on lossy spotify are good - better than the Caiman with the old T-amp!
I've been wondering whether to snag something like that for the kitchen if I could find one with TOSLINK. Richer Sounds were knocking out Wharfedale Diamonds for about £45 last month... and you're away, perhaps.
I picked the Young up again and realised it's the metal buttons rattling against the mesh. I never noticed that with the V1, and from people not picking me up on it, maybe it doesn't happen with other Youngs. But it's probably not the cause of the output problems.
Anyone want to waggle me their Young?
If Keith gets in quick with his swap, I'll probably not whip the cover off. But if I find time on my hands, you never know...
No I wouldn't be willing to mod anyone else's Young dac. I don't have a SMT rework station and while I don't mind pushing my luck with my own components, eventually the law of averages will bite my ass. I'll stick to building new stuff, and modding through hole stuff.
Just a quick update on what I am hearing from the Young. I f0ew days ago I brought it to a friend's who has an Audio Synthesis DAX-2. The Young was very close to the DAX-2, this is the first DAC there that has the same tonal balance and when you switch from one to the other everything doesn't collapse and start sounding weird, very very good sound from the little beast. It still is a little aggressive and it's missing some of the bass beauty of the DAX-2 but for the money that is quite an achievement. Must say that this is using a battery on the Young and USB, SPDIF is not that good unfortunately. Veery promising...
Very interestng to read this as I also use an Audio Synthesis DAX ( original one box 20 bit version ) and it still sounds very very good imho. I spoke with David Heaton ( mr audio synthesis) recently who said they were working on a new usb dac for release in 6 months or so. Should be good but will be probably be 2/3 times price of Young as AS new gear is not cheap !!
Price is the problem, as I see it, with buying digital gear.
I've said this before on Audio Chews, I think. But I'm happy to spend a few hundred quid on a DAC and keep it for a couple of years, expecting it not to be worth much by the time I move on, but my budget won't allow me to drop thousands of pounds instead of hundreds.
I don't have any illusions about the Young being the best DAC out there, but it does seem to offer good sound for a reasonable outlay.
I hope I will be able to drop a few K sometime in the future :-)
I still like the DAX-2 a lot, it was one of the DACs that made my happy for quite some time, I got so obsessed to get the most of it that I found a pair of PCM63P-Y grade chips, selected for Yamaha for their professional devices and never sold to the public, it was really good with that pair. It has the tube like sound that Simon mentioned but I would call it tube like because of the great midrange and the slightly soft balance, it also has a very gentle emphasis on midbase that is the reason for the nice presentation on analytical systems. This is the area that I would like the Young to develope somehow and though it doesn't have the wide stage that the DAX-2 has it more than makes up with naturalness of timber and fantastic separation of individual players. I need some free time to play a little with the Young, I am from the nasty breed that hears differences in cables and phase of power cables, let alone new caps, you can consider the one on the input of my Young"upgraded", I just need to find a good one. So far the test that I recently developed(listening long term and then swapping things) makes me quite happy with the Young.
There's nothing out there better than the Panasonic FM for use in that location in the Young DAC, low ripple and impedance is everything in this application.
I'm not quite sure what it is Peter, but if I remember correctly there is not a linux driver for the Young. Perhaps one of the cleverer Young users will be along soon.
Comments
But that specific PSU is definitely affected by the run-in rollercoaster – in my system, powering a Wadia dock – and according to Audiocom who know them inside out. Or at least as well as than anyone in the UK.
The roolz iz respec'. Nuff sed. Aright?
Keith.
Cheers, Adrian
I just bought a second hand T-amp thingy, with built in USB DAC. Initial listening impressions on lossy spotify are good - better than the Caiman with the old T-amp!
So Simon, are you offering a Young upgrades service for UK customers? You could be just like audiocom!
I wonder when the new driver is out?
Very interestng to read this as I also use an Audio Synthesis DAX ( original one box 20 bit version ) and it still sounds very very good imho. I spoke with David Heaton ( mr audio synthesis) recently who said they were working on a new usb dac for release in 6 months or so. Should be good but will be probably be 2/3 times price of Young as AS new gear is not cheap !!
I still like the DAX-2 a lot, it was one of the DACs that made my happy for quite some time, I got so obsessed to get the most of it that I found a pair of PCM63P-Y grade chips, selected for Yamaha for their professional devices and never sold to the public, it was really good with that pair. It has the tube like sound that Simon mentioned but I would call it tube like because of the great midrange and the slightly soft balance, it also has a very gentle emphasis on midbase that is the reason for the nice presentation on analytical systems. This is the area that I would like the Young to develope somehow and though it doesn't have the wide stage that the DAX-2 has it more than makes up with naturalness of timber and fantastic separation of individual players. I need some free time to play a little with the Young, I am from the nasty breed that hears differences in cables and phase of power cables, let alone new caps, you can consider the one on the input of my Young"upgraded", I just need to find a good one. So far the test that I recently developed(listening long term and then swapping things) makes me quite happy with the Young.
The Voyage MDP comes with its own USB driver.
Best wishes,
Peter
It is of course a serious limitation if the onboard usb driver won't work with the majority of the affordable USB DACs available.
Best wishes,
Peter