Try replaying it at different multiples of 44.1 sampling rate and see if the clipping appears to be reduced more on the higher sample rates.
I'm pretty confident that Marco hasn't just reduced the output level using a simple function that gives us -1db on everything we play, that would be an ugly hack. I think he's tried something more clever based on adjacent sample values and weighting the values
I believe the answer to that is fucking-A, the clipping is somehow reduced, halved it would appear, each time you double the sample rate. That's why I couldn't hear it at 384, until I had heard it at 44.1.
What if we are looking at this the wrong way and it isn't just the level that is important, ie 0db, but what the samples all have in common that counts- they are all the same value. I can still hear the clipping effect even when i reduce the level by 4db in Audacity.
I wonder what happens if i tilt the volume over the whole track, taper it, if you will that should remove the = adjacent sample values.
Interesting. I've only played it at 44.1 as Amarra auto detects sample rates so defaults the Young to 44.1. I'm really pleased we now all agree and are hearing the same problem. I've come over more CDs that clip and crackle last night at 44.1 setting and not all Rap! EG Metallica Live S&M album, disc 2 'Enter Sandman'.
if you are sick of Kanye try the Metallica track below (v1 style crackles worse in middle of track) or the Roisin Murphy track I previously posted. Password youngtest. Link valid for 24 hours.
If have to say I did notice the v2 DAC did sound a touch quieter than v1 at the same volume setting on my pre-amp. I hope the output wasn't just decreased a notch in the update.....
The Kanye track is just shit, even on my dell through headphones I would class it as unlistenable junk.
Andy when you say it clips do you mean you can hear the clipping that was recorded in the studio, or you can hear the young inserting it's own noise like the v1 did at 0db?
Hi Simon. It's as you say, v1-clipping effect, apparent at 44.1. I never heard v1-clipping like this on my V1 DAC, and so far have not heard v1-clipping like this EVER. Like Monty I'm letting PM select sample rate. I propose the KW track is not fit for purpose (I had to turn it down 5db to get rid of this!!!!), however it is still telling us something about how the Young handles information as i dod not get this artefact when played outside the Young DAC. I believe that a little further work may be required on the Young and that Marco (perhaps via Keith) should be our route.
I'm sold on this DAC, we'll get there. Chin up chaps.
Let's hope, for all our sakes, that Marco can is able to let us upgrade our own firmware by just providing us the code. Shifting many kilos of metalwork around the world isn't the way to go.
I just caught up with this thread today - you guys have covered a lot of ground. I have always let Decibel select appropriate sample rates and have noticed just the slightest crackling on some tracks. I was almost ready to conclude it was 'studio clipping'.
I am with the general view, that I am ready to persevere with the Young, and I'm confident that Marco will likely solve the issues. I am disappointed for him that his previous fix hasn't done the trick, as he probably has other things he wants to be doing, like getting the Vaughn ready for Munich. But M2Tech really need to be selling products that area truly fit for the marketplace, and even budget kit can play these tracks. If the Young has this problem then the Vaughn probably will too.
Sounding like a million dollars on the tracks that it *can* play doesn't really cut it, however little my music collection is effected,and it won't do M2Tech's reputation any good at all.
I just caught up with this thread today - you guys have covered a lot of ground. I have always let Decibel select appropriate sample rates and have noticed just the slightest crackling on some tracks. I was almost ready to conclude it was 'studio clipping'.
I am with the general view, that I am ready to persevere with the Young, and I'm confident that Marco will likely solve the issues. I am disappointed for him that his previous fix hasn't done the trick, as he probably has other things he wants to be doing, like getting the Vaughn ready for Munich. But M2Tech really need to be selling products that area truly fit for the marketplace, and even budget kit can play these tracks. If the Young has this problem then the Vaughn probably will too.
Sounding like a million dollars on the tracks that it *can* play doesn't really cut it, however little my music collection is effected,and it won't do M2Tech's reputation any good at all.
I think that's a very good summary, Alan.
I hope Marco sees us as a great testing ground for his product. A way of getting valuable feedback that he can act on, rather than seeing a product die in the marketplace through bad word of mouth.
Keith. Would it be worthwhile for those with torture tracks to make them available to Marco? I know he has one already.
Given the number of units in the field, i would expect it economical for Marco to take a flight over to the UK and fix all the units up in one day at keith's once the fix is written.
I have passed everything on to Marco, I received this from him this morning, 'we have downloaded the track (also in FLAC format) and tested it: it seems that, indeed, some distortion occurs, but we are still looking for the reason, because it's not the old problem. I'll let you know ASAP.
I suppose I can make that sacrifice also. Marco will get to the bottom of it I'm sure.
Shame we couldn't find him any more tasteful tracks with distortion for him to work to, eh Adrian?
:P Just kidding - really, without your searching & hosting links we wouldn't have got action so fast on this issue, or even known it was there. Well done!
Morning everyone, just to keep yo y'all up to speed, Marco wrote this morning, and he hopes to have an answer within the next couple of days, he did say that ,they hadn't encountered the problem with either. the music tracks or the 0db tones they use in development. As soon as I hear anything I will of course let you all know, thanks as always for your patience. btw there has been a big DAC bake off in another place, in between dealers fighting some dacs were listened to,including the Young, which the host 'bottle neck' has subsequently purchased! Proof of the pudding and all that, very best,Keith.
That's interesting Keith - there were DACs there that cost a lot more, as well as some tasty all-in-one solutions. When it's yer' own money and VFM has to be considered, the decision making process becomes more pragmatic. Make sure you mention power supplies to him - plenty of advice over here if he wants.
Alan Hi, some of the dacs sounded good from the cd transport, I believe through spdif they were more similar in performance, he just thought the Youngs price/ performance won the day, especially using a PC/Mac, which is the primary function of the Young. br Keith.
Morning everyone, just to keep yo y'all up to speed, Marco wrote this morning, and he hopes to have an answer within the next couple of days, he did say that ,they hadn't encountered the problem with either. the music tracks or the 0db tones they use in development. As soon as I hear anything I will of course let you all know, thanks as always for your patience. btw there has been a big DAC bake off in another place, in between dealers fighting some dacs were listened to,including the Young, which the host 'bottle neck' has subsequently purchased! Proof of the pudding and all that, very best,Keith.
Thanks Keith
Marco cannot have tried all the tracks we have, of course. I hope he's not trying to pass the buck or otherwise duck the issue.
I'll track down that write-up. Good news on the Young, of course.
Alan Hi, some of the dacs sounded good from the cd transport, I believe through spdif they were more similar in performance, he just thought the Youngs price/ performance won the day, especially using a PC/Mac, which is the primary function of the Young. br Keith.
CD transport? Is that like a digital horse and cart? :-)
The write up is on PinkFishMedia, it's the top topic at the moment.
I am quite prepared to accept Marco hasn't experienced the problem we are discussing currently - it is almost unnoticeable on my music collection (or the percentage I have got through so far) and seems to be an artefact of certain modern production values.
Thanks Keith. I assume you've let Marco know the issue is way more evident when the Young is set to 44.1...... seems strange his 0db tests didn't show the issue up. Perhaps it's only certain sound frequencies at 0db that causes the problems we've been experiencing on the 3 tracks I posted? Cheers, Adrian
The write up is on PinkFishMedia, it's the top topic at the moment.
I am quite prepared to accept Marco hasn't experienced the problem we are discussing currently - it is almost unnoticeable on my music collection (or the percentage I have got through so far) and seems to be an artefact of certain modern production values.
I think I'll have to book a day off to read that thread.
I am quite prepared to accept Marco hasn't experienced the problem we are discussing currently - it is almost unnoticeable on my music collection (or the percentage I have got through so far) and seems to be an artefact of certain modern production values.
I am quite prepared to accept Marco hasn't experienced the problem we are discussing currently - it is almost unnoticeable on my music collection (or the percentage I have got through so far) and seems to be an artefact of certain modern production values.
The same applies for me Alan.
I can't find any problems with the music I own, but that doesn't mean there won't be a problem with the next music I buy. Then I will have a problem, which is why it needs addressing now, IMO.
I have a pair of Antipodes audio Komako ICs which replaced a pair of Jorma Design No.1 between the Young and the Primare i30. I am guilty of not having had the time to do a proper listening session but I cannot get home from work the last days or I just spend a few hours there which is not a good thing, especially when you are dying to hear a new piece of equimpment... Hopefully tomorrow is the day, I will report back asap.
Morning everyone, just to keep yo y'all up to speed, Marco wrote this morning, and he hopes to have an answer within the next couple of days, he did say that ,they hadn't encountered the problem with either. the music tracks or the 0db tones they use in development. As soon as I hear anything I will of course let you all know, thanks as always for your patience. btw there has been a big DAC bake off in another place, in between dealers fighting some dacs were listened to,including the Young, which the host 'bottle neck' has subsequently purchased! Proof of the pudding and all that, very best,Keith.
As one of the slightly smeared 'dealers fighting' at Chris' bake-off, I can tell you that an uncommonly civil atmosphere prevailed - I've never been to such a well mannered and objectively conducted shootout. Not many dealers would be happy to sit for nine hours straight listening to the same track in an endless parade of other people's converters, but the gent from Audio Warehouse was an enthusiast, not a shill. We also had an ex-trade member on the panel. That's nine hours, one track, two slices of pizza, one toilet break, seven polite, experienced listeners, and about 15 seconds fighting between me and the host - over which RCA cable to use. Above all, we were just excited to listen to all this stuff in a nice environment. I think you were invited, Keith . . .
Interestingly, as the results show, there was barely detectable partisan voting: I rated the Calyx DAC and our own audio computer well below the cheaper combination of Heed + Meridian from Audio Warehouse. Dave, who brought the initially-disappointing Audiolab, was entirely candid about its shortcomings: but suggestions were commonly chipped in (no gloating over its misfortune or rushing on), and eventually, after five or six listens (same track!!) we found its configuration sweet spot so it could fairly do its thing. Sounded fine. Andy, who bought the Rega, was as excited as anyone about the DACs that bettered his. Chris was just looking for the best value/performance ratio via USB from a standard laptop: in that system, via that protocol, with that budget, I'd have chosen the Young or Rega myself. Everyone just called it as they heard it.
Most telling, in the end, there was a general consensus - with a few outliers - about the ranking of 'best sound on the day'. Given that the W4S and Young compete almost head to head on price, I have every vested interest in dissing it, but actually I thought it was very good: just the kind of DAC I tend to favour: transparent, resolute, even-handed, working . . . and at £675 it would have been a candidate for the value star of the day. But undeniably, the majority view was that the Young DAC wasn't better than any of the more expensive converters it was pitted against (W4S, Heed, Calyx, Antelope).
In fact, it was slightly disappointing to find that there were no giant killers, just nice sounding DACs at different price points - reinforcing all those dreadful cliches: ‘you get what you pay for'; 'a good big 'un will always beat a good littl'un', etc . . .
In fact, it was slightly disappointing to find that there were no giant killers, just nice sounding DACs at different price points - reinforcing all those dreadful cliches: ‘you get what you pay for'; 'a good big 'un will always beat a good littl'un', etc . . .
Excellent session it sounded like and i'm glad some trade guys supported it, brilliant! The result is a good one really, as there's lots of DAC choice out there. I compared the Young to the Lavry and the Young showed it a clean pair of heels for many of the reasons you specify. However I can't go 100% with you conclusion of you get what you pay for. When I listened to the Naim DAC compared to the Young then the Naim was rather sluggish (yes I had no Naim PSU on the Naim and may have elevated it but really I expected it to sound better).
Also for the initial listening the Young was connected via it's Async USB , where ,Chris ( bottleneck) tells me it was universally praised, for the second round of listening it was connected via s/pdif. I find here I prefer it through USB, which it was primarily designed. The Calyx looks an interesting DAC, but $1500 in the US and £1450 over here! Keith.
Things have come on a bit since the Lavry ruled the £1K club, back in the day.
We wanted to put all the hot young things from 2011 into a room and let them sort it out. We didn't have the Naim DAC on hand - partly because, outside of the faithful, there seems to be little positive buzz about it, and you see a lot of nearly new ones for sale.
As they say, a GOOD big'un will always beat a good littl'un. The Young, I think, bested all contenders under £800, but the W4S, Heed and Calyx are superb at their (higher) price point. A good litte'un will often beat a middling big'un.
I didn't attend but Chris was kind enough to telephone me yesterday with the juicy details, he said the Heed was extremely disappointing through USB ( 1.0 I didn't think anyone used 1.0 anymore) but was much better through the Meridian optical transport, I had extremely high hopes for the Wyred for sound, it uses the Sabre chip, Marco OEMs the Async USB input, yet here it was extremely disappointing. I firmly believe you have to hear this stuff in your own system . Keith.
Not to discredit in any way the superhuman efforts, but, sighted test, and only one track, it's about as close to pointless a test as you can get if objectivity is viewpoint was the goal.
Keith i've been through that Kanye track, sample by sample, well at least two seconds of it in the worst part of the track, you can tell Marco the maximum number of concurrent identical samples is 22.
I also redrew all the curves for a half second slice of the worst part of the track, removing all identical concurrent samples, by hand, tedious, took an hour. On playback the glitches in that short slice of the 2 second file are gone.
When you have a spare minute, would you start a thread on how to do this kind of analysis please? Do you use Audacity (Mac and PC version available I think)?
Andy
PS: Quincy Jones and me are have a fine funk time today :-) I am The Dude!
Chris was impressed with the way it sounded, relative to other DACs, in the first round with a standard laptop. So to its credit, it doesn't need a good transport to do its thing. It's evidently a USB specialist, like the Calyx. Proprietary drivers are a crucial part of the recipe. The W4S doesn't outperform the Young very much via USB, and is more transport-dependent, but, as round two of the test demonstrated, is capable of more when properly configured - which will inevitably be more expensive. Again, you kind of get what you pay for.
Obviously, cost depends on where the DAC is made: the Rega is the same price as the Young in America. It's cheaper to ship from Asia to the States, and we're looking at prices without VAT or import duty on American shelves, so it won't ever be as cheap.
A $1500 Calyx purchase will cost you about £970 at today's prices (mindful of the fees built into the bank rate). Plus around £70 shipping, 20% VAT, 5% duty, and the Parcelforce handling charge of £13.50. That's £1275 landed. But no UK warranty.
We share the same problem, Keith: constrained by restrictions re: advertised prices. The Young is 'officially' £930 in the same way the Calyx is 'officially' £1495. The W4S DAC1 is £899 actual - on average, same as the landed price of buying direct from the States.
Comments
I am with the general view, that I am ready to persevere with the Young, and I'm confident that Marco will likely solve the issues. I am disappointed for him that his previous fix hasn't done the trick, as he probably has other things he wants to be doing, like getting the Vaughn ready for Munich. But M2Tech really need to be selling products that area truly fit for the marketplace, and even budget kit can play these tracks. If the Young has this problem then the Vaughn probably will too.
Sounding like a million dollars on the tracks that it *can* play doesn't really cut it, however little my music collection is effected,and it won't do M2Tech's reputation any good at all.
'we have downloaded the track (also in FLAC format) and tested it: it seems that, indeed, some distortion occurs, but we are still looking for the reason, because it's not the old problem. I'll let you know ASAP.
Shame we couldn't find him any more tasteful tracks with distortion for him to work to, eh Adrian?
:P
Just kidding - really, without your searching & hosting links we wouldn't have got action so fast on this issue, or even known it was there. Well done!
As soon as I hear anything I will of course let you all know, thanks as always for your patience.
btw there has been a big DAC bake off in another place, in between dealers fighting some dacs were listened to,including the Young, which the host 'bottle neck' has subsequently purchased!
Proof of the pudding and all that, very best,Keith.
As an aside - the Calyx looks interesting.
br Keith.
I am quite prepared to accept Marco hasn't experienced the problem we are discussing currently - it is almost unnoticeable on my music collection (or the percentage I have got through so far) and seems to be an artefact of certain modern production values.
vb Keith.
I have a pair of Antipodes audio Komako ICs which replaced a pair of Jorma Design No.1 between the Young and the Primare i30. I am guilty of not having had the time to do a proper listening session but I cannot get home from work the last days or I just spend a few hours there which is not a good thing, especially when you are dying to hear a new piece of equimpment... Hopefully tomorrow is the day, I will report back asap.
Interestingly, as the results show, there was barely detectable partisan voting: I rated the Calyx DAC and our own audio computer well below the cheaper combination of Heed + Meridian from Audio Warehouse. Dave, who brought the initially-disappointing Audiolab, was entirely candid about its shortcomings: but suggestions were commonly chipped in (no gloating over its misfortune or rushing on), and eventually, after five or six listens (same track!!) we found its configuration sweet spot so it could fairly do its thing. Sounded fine. Andy, who bought the Rega, was as excited as anyone about the DACs that bettered his. Chris was just looking for the best value/performance ratio via USB from a standard laptop: in that system, via that protocol, with that budget, I'd have chosen the Young or Rega myself. Everyone just called it as they heard it.
Most telling, in the end, there was a general consensus - with a few outliers - about the ranking of 'best sound on the day'. Given that the W4S and Young compete almost head to head on price, I have every vested interest in dissing it, but actually I thought it was very good: just the kind of DAC I tend to favour: transparent, resolute, even-handed, working . . . and at £675 it would have been a candidate for the value star of the day. But undeniably, the majority view was that the Young DAC wasn't better than any of the more expensive converters it was pitted against (W4S, Heed, Calyx, Antelope).
In fact, it was slightly disappointing to find that there were no giant killers, just nice sounding DACs at different price points - reinforcing all those dreadful cliches: ‘you get what you pay for'; 'a good big 'un will always beat a good littl'un', etc . . .
I find here I prefer it through USB, which it was primarily designed.
The Calyx looks an interesting DAC, but $1500 in the US and £1450 over here!
Keith.
We wanted to put all the hot young things from 2011 into a room and let them sort it out. We didn't have the Naim DAC on hand - partly because, outside of the faithful, there seems to be little positive buzz about it, and you see a lot of nearly new ones for sale.
As they say, a GOOD big'un will always beat a good littl'un. The Young, I think, bested all contenders under £800, but the W4S, Heed and Calyx are superb at their (higher) price point. A good litte'un will often beat a middling big'un.
I firmly believe you have to hear this stuff in your own system .
Keith.
Obviously, cost depends on where the DAC is made: the Rega is the same price as the Young in America. It's cheaper to ship from Asia to the States, and we're looking at prices without VAT or import duty on American shelves, so it won't ever be as cheap.
A $1500 Calyx purchase will cost you about £970 at today's prices (mindful of the fees built into the bank rate). Plus around £70 shipping, 20% VAT, 5% duty, and the Parcelforce handling charge of £13.50. That's £1275 landed. But no UK warranty.
We share the same problem, Keith: constrained by restrictions re: advertised prices. The Young is 'officially' £930 in the same way the Calyx is 'officially' £1495. The W4S DAC1 is £899 actual - on average, same as the landed price of buying direct from the States.